Americans' ardent support for Israel is palpable in poll after poll showing far greater sympathy for the Jewish state than for Palestinians.
It's evidenced in the vote in the last U.S. Congress to top up American funding for Israel's missile-defence system: a lopsided result of 420 to 9.
So that American backing is not in question; it's a decades-long reality and was just reinforced with the blood-curdling massacre of Israeli civilians by Hamas militants on Oct. 7.
What's less certain is the reaction from one important constituency as Israel expands its counter-offensive in Gaza and as the death toll mounts among Palestinian civilians.
We're talking about the U.S. left. It's virtually the only place in American politics where there might be a debate — over what's acceptable in war, and about a path back to peace.
And signs are emerging of Democrats wanting to pressure Israel into abiding by certain limits in its operation.
I wouldn't be so confident.
The American majority is solidly center-left.
Sure, the progressive wing is still small and they are smart enough to dodge the anti-semitism rhetoric. Why paint a target on your back.
But the public opinion is definitely shifting away from unconditional support for Israel. I haven't seen this much pro-Palestinian support in my life.
20 years ago you'd have Noam Chomksy and Norman Finkelstein calling out what's going on and that's about it. It's very different today.
There's no cold war anymore and the assassination of Rabin and rise of the Israeli right wing has been the change (even if it was a delayed effect in American perception). The only political assassination that was so successful at achieving the assassin's goals as that of Rabin in recent memory was the one of Japan's Abe.
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…my god…. the US centre left are the most violent government in the world and have just sailed 2 aircraft carriers to theatre.
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Don’t refer to the entirety of the US government as “center left”. It makes you look like an idiot.
Especially when the entire government is noticeably right wing.
The sitting President is listed next to every war. If you can’t read a table, better sit this one out.
No he isn't. I guess you didn't scroll far enough.
Maybe verify what you think before stating it as fact.
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No, I've been really clear.
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Article : Democrats' growing sympathy for Palestinians unlikely to shape near-term policy
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The comment I replied to said, "Dont be too confident, there's a Centre Left Majority and support for Israel is dwindling" (My paraphrase)
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I replied and said that Centre Left governments are still massive war mongers ("the most violent government"), and have just sailed 2 aircraft carriers into theatre.
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you questioned that, which is cool
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I posted a link to a list on wikipedia of all the US interventions in the 21st century.the data show the US to be involved in many wars. Its more than anyone else, for anyone who wanted to check my facts - but no one did. It's also obvious from the wikipage, that not every war was prosecuted by a Centre left government - (which was never the claim, for the idiots at the back).
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chaos ensued, because Team USA showed up, did their patriotic duty of bullying the dissenter
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Not even all the Democrats are center left ffs.
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north americans aren't "allowed" to criticise israel because that criticism gets confused for being anti-semitic and people risk losing their jobs and israel is meant to be a US ally, it's really awful that people can't call out another country's shitty behaviour. People should be able to criticise the Israeli govt, the CCP, the saudi government's treatment of people terrible without fear of repercussion
The criticism isn't confused for being antsemitic. Genuine criticism of the actions of the Israeli government is deliberately labled as antisemitism to discredit it.
The reality of the situation is that Israel is an extremely important ally in the region. They are our biggest intelligence partner in one of, if not the most important regions in the world politically and economically. Everyone around them is, to some extent, an adversary or enemy to the United States. Until these benefits they provide the United States in the region is outweighed by their atrocities there will be continued, almost unconditional support from the US government.
Israel is more a liability than an asset. And they are a very expensive liability.
Egypt and the gulf states are much more strategically important for the USA and Europe. Which is why MBS could brutally murder Kashoggi and still get Biden to come hat in hand for support
The main, and basicslly only, reason to support Israel is US domestic politics.
And those attitudes are rapidly shifting.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/07/11/american-views-of-israel/
I can't disagree more. Saudi Arabia is absolutely not an ally. Egypt is absolutely not an ally either. They may be strategically important, but the US can basically guarantee loyalty from the Israelis. No such loyalties will be found in Muslim nations. Egypt also does not have a recent history of stability. Israel is also the only "Western" nation in the Middle East.
Edit: allow me to clarify and see my responses to this. I am wrong in saying they are not allies. We are allies economically and militarily, but the relationship is not the same as the relationship with Israel. For many reasons, and those reasons, some expressed below, are why the US considers Israel the most important ally in the region. HOWEVER, things have been slowly changing in recent years. But how these relationships play out is yet to be seen.
You might want to drink a little less koolaid and research a little more realpolitik.
When Israel declared independence in 1948, the CIA and other intelligence services advised against recognizing their independence to avoid upsetting Arab allies, but Truman did so because the public opinion was in favor.
Saudi-Arabia has been by far the most important American ally since the end of WW2, even if it's mostly been an alliance of begrudging mutual benefit instead of one of respect.
The whole petrodollar world order was built on that alliance.
I'm very well read on the subject, thank you. A lot has happened since 1948. Maybe read some more recent history yourself.
Gotta agree with the other guy here. You’re sort of talking out of your ass. The ME en masse is allied with the US or can be an ally to the US if the US didn’t support Israel and took a neutral stance on the Palestine issue. Iran is the only place that is openly against the US but even they have shown the willingness to come to talks were the US had a policy more favorable to peace and stability in the region (ala Obama’s deal with Iran).
if the US didn’t support Israel and took a neutral stance on the Palestine issue
I think we are agreeing with each other? I'm arguing modern relations. If the US did not align so closely with Israel over the last 80 years the situation would be different. But because we did, it is how it is today.
Edit: if you would, allow me to amend the comment you responded to. I inaccurately stated what I mean. We have alliances with Saudis, we have agreements with Egypt.
This article articulates the points I would like to make better than I could ever make them. It also agrees that American politics is a driving factor, of course it is. But also explains what I mean about strategically and intelligence wise.
https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23916266/us-israel-support-ally-gaza-war-aid
Edit2, the important bit from the article to support my view
Initially, Israel served as a countervailing force to Soviet influence, but this line of thinking persisted even after the Cold War. And it became even more pervasive after 9/11, when it was discovered that some of the perpetrators of the attack were citizens of Saudi Arabia, which the US counted as another key ally in the region. Doubting that it could continue to rely on the Saudis, the US leaned more heavily on Israel based on the perception that it had more shared values and interests. That includes a shared commitment to democracy, though Netanyahu’s undemocratic plan to overhaul the Israeli judiciary has recently put that in question.
“It’s not only a long-standing moral commitment; it’s a strategic commitment,” then-Vice President Biden said in 2013. “An independent Israel, secure in its own borders, recognized by the world is in the practical strategic interest of the United States of America. I used to say … if there were no Israel, we’d have to invent one.”
there are also some good books on the subject I can recommend.
They may be strategically important, but the US can basically guarantee loyalty from the Israelis.
Sure, all you have to do is endure American citizens getting domed for the crime of being journalists, paying spies to fetch US nuclear secrets, sabotaging US diplomatic efforts, selling US secrets to China, etc etc etc.
“Israel is the largest American aircraft carrier in the world that cannot be sunk, does not carry even one American soldier, and is located in a critical region for American national security.”
— Alexander Haig
I saw this today and searched for any other articles where The Times of Israel uses the word "genocide"… This complete lack of self-criticism is what made Israel an apartheid state.
Unfortunately Hamas's success was far beyond their expectations. They were left unchecked for hours and during that time chose to commit the worst type of atrocities.
In doing so, they validated Israelis fears that if the "Palestinians" could, they would torture, rape and kill every single Israeli including the elderly and children.
Israel is now a country in trauma and is driven by vengeance and fear.
Sadly, at this point, no amount of world criticism will make any difference.
The only way to prevent massive casualties on both sides is if Hamas releases the civilian hostages.
Israel is driven by vengeance and fear.
That's been the case for decades but a lot of the world won't hold them accountable for their own actions.
Palestinian lives and civil rights almost always take a backseat to Israeli rhetoric and posturing on the world stage. The loss of any innocent life is tragic whether it be Israeli, Palestinian, or otherwise and should be treated as such.
Unfortunately for everyone Palestine/Gaza has become so desperate to escape their shrinking cage that they seem to have resorted to desperate and despicable tactics, and Israel will gladly commit genocide if the world allows them to. It's a no win situation that should be defused by world powers, not encouraged and bankrolled by them.
Hamas releasing hostages won't help. Israel wants a blood price measured in tens of thousands of bodies.
You're not wrong, but with the tensions in Israel's northern border and with Hizbolla signalling that they will launch an assault if Israel moves into Gaza, releasing the hostages might just be the excuse everyone needs to de-escalate.
I don't quite see how supporting a defense system to stop incoming missiles is a bad thing though.
Don't be disengenuous. It's more than that and you know it.
I do indeed and it's all awful.
But that's what the text draws on to show American support.
I'm just saying I don't feel funding a defense weapon is a good example.
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I have been following it and both sides have been awful as usual.
Just pointing out supporting a middle defense system is not a bad thing.
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It's evidenced in the vote in the last U.S. Congress to top up American funding for Israel's missile-defence system: a lopsided result of 420 to 9.
Was commenting on the text above is all
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People are forgetting that this missle defense system has saved tens of thousands of lives from dieing by Hamas hands.
Yeah exactly. It's defending citizens from terrorist attacks.
Regardless of the fact the government actions pretty much caused these, it's still good for civilians.
CITIZEN: Good faith questions (even if brought up by the second sentence in the story) are unwelcome unless they conform to lemmy's zeitgeist.
(Now say something anti-Ireal and you might get some points back. Of course that might get you called an anti-Semite. Either way, you're basically a terrorist. 🤷🏻♂️ You really can't win.)
