…yeah, I'm sure Trump will have your back…
The neoliberal mantra:
Yeah, we're shit. But what are you going to do, vote Republican?
In real life some of those people just won't vote. I'll never understand why the blame isn't put on the candidate for low voter turnout.
It just sucks neoliberals have shown time and time again that they're fine ignoring anyone to the left of them because they feel entitled to their votes. Even tho it's clearly not been working for decades.
Yeah, we’re shit. But what are you going to do, vote Republican?
You forgot the bit at the end where they laugh like a One Piece villain.
Whispers Because they are exactly that.
Sure, if you want to interpret "voting against Biden" as not voting. On election day, I think most Muslims know that not voting or voting for Trump or any other Republican is directly against their interests.
I think you put a lot of faith in the typical voter.
too much, even.
You pretty much just reworded my exaggerated quote:
Yeah, we’re shit. But what are you going to do, vote Republican?
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I did not, I said:
In real life some of those people just won’t vote
Meaning they're not going to vote trump, but some may not vote at all.
With the implication that because the neoliberal mantra is:
Yeah, we’re shit. But what are you going to do, vote Republican?
They're going to act like not voting for Biden is voting for trump.
Something you've explicitly said in this thread…
I'm just confused, all your words are agreeing with my points, but your tone is conveying that you disagree?
It has been working fine, they keep getting elected.
So 2016 to 2020 really was a fever dream and the Supreme Court isn't packed with far right religious extremists?!
Abused minority: attempts to use the only leverage they have to influence policy away from full-throated support of an ongoing genocide
Neoliberals and their useful idiots: "You must want fascism!" 🤦
Considering that literally the only other options would be objectively worse, and would give the openly fascistic party a better chance at winning, are they wrong tho?
I fucking hate the stranglehold on power that the 2 party system gives to both parties, and how it allows them to hold our votes hostage. But at the same time I'm a pragmatist who understands how electoral politics works, and also someone who understands that while voting won't get you to a utopia, not voting can absolutely help push the country farther and farther away (as we saw in 2016).
I'm absolutely not going to be the guy that tries to guilt people into voting against the fascists even if it means holding their nose for a party they don't like (which is where I've landed), but there really isn't a much better option available that isn't directly against peoples' better interests. I'd love to hear where I'm wrong or overlooking something better, but I haven't seen it yet.
I agree. It's a huge gambit that is unlikely to pay off.
Why? Because despite valid concerns over Israeli aggression and Palestinian oppression, support for Israel is still high and for every Muslim you try to reach out in support you risk ostracizing the predominantly Democratic Jewish voters (which roughly doubles Muslim population) all the same. I'd hate to be the analyst for Biden on that, but it's pretty cut-and-dry.
Right but… they don't want Trump to be president. They want someone like Biden to be (or Biden) and for Biden to not support a brewing 'Hot' Genocide (It was already arguably one and I don't know the proper terms here). It's just that the only leverage they have is withdrawing support. It's a game of chicken.
It's just that the only leverage they have is withdrawing support. It's a game of chicken.
I don't disagree with what you said, but this right here is the most correct. My only point was that their leverage amounts to holding a grenade and pulling the pin. Sure, they'll hurt the Dems for not doing the right thing, but they're still going to hurt themselves much worse.
Orrrrr all the ones who claim third parties can’t win could actually find a decent nominee and vote for them.
I’ll take: things that will never happen for a thousand. We keep doing what works against us rather than try something that will.
The problem with that is, because of the duopoly on federal power right now, third parties are neutered on the national level. Voting for them nationally is little more than a token gesture, and does more harm then good.
It sucks, and I hate it, but its also the truth. State and local races benefit more from third party/independent votes, which is where attention should be more focused.
I do sympathize with those disenfranchised by the lesser of two evils party. Its a difficult position to be in.
It’s sad that you can’t imagine enough people getting over their “protect the abuser at all costs” to actually try.
75 million people voted for Trump. More than that many people would need to try. Together.
We're still struggling to get unions at individual workplaces to be commonplace. I dont think my doubts are particularly unfounded.
What openly fascist party?
The proper grammar here is “which”
No, because that would imply that I think there are multiple openly fascist parties and I'm asking for clarification on which one they're talking about
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As a bystander I'm unimpressed by your unwarranted aggressive stance in this response. Incredibly knee-jerk and lacking in ethos. You could've written the entire comment with the same opinions far more effectively.
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My dude, all these comments are unsolicited. Take it or leave it because if your intent is persuasion (lest, what else?), then you're likely wasting everyones' time including your own.
Catch more flies with honey. But take the maga approach substituting aggression for substance if you insist, for the other user seems pretty reasonable and mature.
Tell me you don't understand electoral politics without telling me that you don't understand electoral politics.
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That's how first past the post voting works. It sucks, but until that changes it's what we got.
Yeah, except for the fact where even THREATENING to do anything but meekly go along with it gets you ridicule if not outright hostility, no matter how noble the goal.
If you truly think it sucks, why are you vehemently defending it against viewpoints closer to your own than those of the out of touch establishment?
Because we tried that and got Trump. That's the risk here.
More Hillary primary voters didnt for for Obama in his general then there were Bernie primary voters that didn't vote for Hillary in the general. So I don't think saying 'we tried that and got Trump' is truthful at all.
Sticking to the two party system will not stop the next fascist, it can only delay them. Look at the past 30 years of presidents, flip flop back and forth some 4 years some 8 but a new face meant it was the other parties turn.
At some point we need to do something different and if you wanna wait for the better smarter fascist that's learns from Trump's mistakes, you're going to have a really bad time.
No shit we need to move away from the system we have. Literally no one here is saying otherwise.
The problem is you're not proposing a solution, you're just saying we should piss on a sign post and call it effective action. It does nothing to help, and actively helps those making things worse.
You want change? Look for something meaningful to do instead of whining that people are rightfully criticizing you for your ineffective actions.
We have proposed the solution and you’re unwilling to try, and this keeping millions of us trapped in the abusive relationship you’re rather happy to be in. BuT bEInG bEaTeN iS sO mUcH bEtTeR tHaN bEiNg StRaNgLeD!
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The larger the share of votes third party candidates get the more funding they get from the government to help run candidates that arent already rich or connected or party officials, as well as increasing the incentive for main parties to adopt RCV or IRV to try and get shares those votes. Because as it stands neither party cares enough about third party voters to really do much to court them outside of enforcing two party rule. You're upset that it may lose one or two elections along the way, but don't act like theres no strategy involved in growing the number of third party voters, super disingenuous.
No matter what you think of my plan, it's more thought out than your plan for RCV which im dying to hear.
The problem is that your "couple elections here and there" have massive implications nationwide, while the "progress" it promises is little more than a trickle at best.
You want to take a couple steps forward toward your own goal? Do it! But don't espouse everyone else take a massive leap backwards so you can have your token change.
I think third parties are a good idea… at a state and local level. Where they actual have a chance. But advocating for them on a national level is foolhardy at best, and downright regressive at worst.
No, you tried going along with the neoliberal way of doing things and everything went so shitty for regular people that a lot of those who were already most vulnerable to demagoguery were radicalised to the point of Trump.
Last time I acted on a threat like this, we got Bush Jr. I absolutely did not want to see Tipper Fucking Gore in the White House again, so I voted Green Party. Turns out, me and a bunch of other people doing the same thing almost certainly resulted in the resulting 20 years of constant war, and the deaths of countless innocent civilian non-combatants. I really do believe that blood is on my hands.
Every potential US president with any real chance of winning - all of them - will support Israel. Taking voting action that will lead to a guy who will not only continue to support Israel, but will fan the fires of anti-Islamic rhetoric, and is also a right-wing white supremicist who openly hates poor people… that's the definition of "cutting off your nose to spite your face."
They're angry. I*m angry. My representatives know I think our support of Israel in this genocide is unconscionable. Threatening to not vote for the lesser of two evils is an understandable statement of frustration, but until there's a credible alternative candidate who says they'd cut military support for Israel… well, it's just punching a brick wall.
Last time I acted on a threat like this, we got Bush Jr.
puts on mechanic outfit that's your problem right there! You've got your intended effect meter on backwards. puts it back to "politician acts on threat from constituents"
I really do believe that blood is on my hands.
Blaming yourself for what others do is a classic sign of being in a toxic relationship. You didn't invent the undemocratuc Electoral College, without which Dubya would never have been president and none of his war crimes were suggested by you.
Every potential US president with any real chance of winning - all of them - will support Israel.
Yeah, as long as people like you reinforce the toxic status quo by doing their best to vehemently oppose every attempt to hold them accountable.
My representatives know I think our support of Israel in this genocide is unconscionable.
And your representative also knows that they can count on you and others to run interference every time someone tries to effect meaningful change.
Threatening to not vote for the lesser of two evils is an understandable statement of frustration, but until there's a credible alternative candidate who says they'd cut military support for Israel… well, it's just punching a brick wall.
You would have told Martin Luther King to cut it out with the "brick wall punching" for sure.
One tiny correction: SCOTUS appointed W.
https://www.history.com/news/2000-election-bush-gore-votes-supreme-court
I know, but they wouldn't have gotten the opportunity to do so if not for the EC.
I get that not voting for Biden is bad, and so I will, but I'm so very tired of people blaming voters for not being excited for shitty candidates. Give us good candidates for once, please.
Well we almost got Bernie before the DNC decided he couldn't win and went again him.
You want to vote for a Kennedy this year? Not one of the cool ones (they are all dead) one of the weird ones.
Lesser evilists are no small part of why the two party system continues on undisturbed. Free propagandists that are convinced the only way to fix this is to continue to not disturb the system that continues to produce further right candidates every term.
Whats the definition of insanity again?
But my favorite part is instead of doing anything civicly productive, they would rather simply yell at the citizens who don't think and vote the same way they do.
Lesser evilists are no small part of why the two party system continues on undisturbed.
I mean it's literally proven with math that FPTP voting systems descend into duopolies but whatever makes you feel superior
And yet people constantly harping about voting about voting for third parties in a system that doesn't support it totally isn't screaming into the wind over and over.
I dont disagree that we need a change… but voting for third party national candidates isn't the way to do it.
…yeah, I’m sure Trump will have your back…
Exactly. I'm sure they're pissed at Biden for his position on Israel. Justifiably. But Trump already has a track record of being bigoted when it comes to Muslims and already talks about oppressing them, so this seems like cutting off their noses to spite their faces.
I think it’s just shitty they have to choose between their families getting attacked in the Middle East and their families getting attacked in America.
What a terrible system of government.
I agree with you 100%, but that's the reality of the situation. We should have anything but FPTP voting in this country so people like American Muslims don't have to make faustian bargains, but I hope they realize they do have to make that bargain if they wish to retain their rights.
That’s the neat part about this system: Even if they do vote there’s a decent chance Biden still loses and they lose their rights anyway.
This entire world is fucked.
I agree with you 100%, but that’s the reality of the situation.
It's great that voters have to adapt to politicians instead of the other way around.
I never even implied it was great. Reality is often not great. It's still reality and the reality is it's going to be either Trump or Biden barring Trump not being allowed on ballots. So they only have two choices and not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump. That sucks, but that's just how it is going to work in 2024. Nothing is going to change in terms of U.S. elections over the next year and to expect that is a folly.
The reality is that American Muslims are not going to like who is president regardless. I hope they think about who is less likely to oppress them and that isn't Trump.
I never even implied it was great. Reality is often not great.
It's great for the politicians who think they are in a position to demand unconditional fealty, and the people who matter to them. If the party doesn't want people to act like they're being taken advantage of, the party just has to stop taking advantage of people.
People who have never been betrayed by the party they vote for sure love to lecture people who have.
Excuse me, but you don't know a fucking thing about me. As a disabled person, the Democratic Party betrayed me by not implementing single payer healthcare. You know what's worse? Anything Trump has in mind. So no, I don't like Democrats. I vote for them because the worst Democrat is better than the best Republican and those are the only two valid options right now.
Excuse me, but you don’t know a fucking thing about me.
Wasn't talking about you. Were you lecturing me?
We absolutely do not “have to.” This is the slightly less overtly fascist party daring us to find someone better. We absolutely can.
Cool. Who?
When a battered partner for whom you have zero understanding of why they don’t just leave, what are you going to say?
So, are Democrats going to adapt to this reality?
Or are they gonna demand enthusiastic support regardless of their behavior and start blaming people they already regarded with withering contempt when that doesn't work?
I'm not sure why you're asking me as if I control them.
So no and yes in that order.
Again- I don't control them. Why are you granting me powers I don't have?
Because just like battered partners will find it hard to reclaim their power, they can * reclaim their power; and we can too.
Edited for formatting
I was initially asking you to speculate. Since you refused, I answered for you.
You never asked me to speculate.
Sorry. Next time I want you to not pretend I'm expecting you to have perfect control over a major political party, I'll make sure to preface any questions with something that makes it clear that I'm asking you to speculate and not disclose the party's plans for the future.
This is just another iteration in the infinite loop of “blue no matter who.” We could’ve had Kucinich but the media conglomerates did their overlords’ bidding and silenced him. We could’ve had a lot of human, but infinitely more decent pols. They either ended up dead or received media silence. Funny how tfg continues to get plenty of coverage.
So how do we get there from here?
The democrats also actively work against minorities. The difference is that you guys try to hide it, when the republicans are honest about hating people who aren't middle-class whites.
Are you actually claiming that Democrats are as oppressive and dangerous to minorities as Republicans? Because that's some "enlightened centrist" bullshit.
I'm a militant leftist, thank you. And as long as democrats are voting with republicans to increase police militarization and immunity, and to fund genocides in the middle east, I don't wanna hear any liberal bullshit from you about how your side is better. You're murdering too, you just like to pretend you aren't because you want our votes.
I see, so because they both take the same very abhorrent position on Israel, there's no difference between them on any other important issue. Got it. Also, when my voting strategy is 'don't let Republicans get into office under any circumcstances,' I'm not sure how the Democratic party is 'my side' except in that we have the same political end goals. Perhaps you could explain that.
If your voting for politicians because you think they aren't as bad as the other side, then you're perpetuating the problem. You're not solving anything, you're just encouraging the democrats to continue doing absolutely nothing while in power that doesn't benefit their corporate sponsors. That's what people refer to as a bootlicker. But keep patting yourself on the back like you actually did something helpful. I would hate for you to have to actually confront your participation in the oppression of minorities.
Do you think anyone other than Biden or Trump is likely to be president of the U.S. after 2024? Otherwise I'm not sure how voting for one over the other perpetuates anything. I can't control the fact that it's those two and no one else. That's reality. Insulting me won't make reality any less reality.
And if you'd read a little bit, you'd see I'm disabled, so I am a minority that is oppressed, thank you.
Go look up Biden’s voting record.
What specifically in Biden's voting record means he will oppress Muslims more than Trump will? You tell me. He has a very long voting record, so telling me to look it up is not especially informative or helpful.
Lol he has been in politics for like 50 years.
While your at it, why not look up your childhood friends? I’m sure they are in a phonebook.
"At least we voted our conscience on Gaza" ~ Muslim Americans as they get dragged off to the MAGA reeducation camps.
Then you completely understand why voting for a 3rd party is not a realistic option for change at the national level and only serves to siphon votes from your chosen party and actively works against the causes you claim to want to promote.
By all means, vote 3rd party in the general, I've done it more than once during contentious elections. I'm not your dad and I'm not looking to convince you of who to vote for, but I'm not going to stay silent when people act like there's no downside to holding their ideals in the face of reality.
Let's be fair. With the Electoral college it doesn't matter, unless you happen to live in a handful of states.
Otherwise, in Minnesota and In Idaho you can vote for whomever the fuck you want since your vote matters as much as a fart on a roller coaster.
Exactly! The electoral college makes your vote meaningless. They only look at the general vote as a statistic. I think that statistic should reflect discontent when we we're inevitably again asked to pick between 2 ancient pedophile capitalists.
Well that comment went off the rails quickly.
Ah yes, the glory that is bipartisan democracy.
Not surprised at all. Biden has been awful with his Israel stance and I honestly can't judge anyone that won't put their vote on him for that.
Pretty sure one can easily blame Trump voters for much worse and much more.
Whether you think he's been "awful" or not, I'm sure there are at least as many who would now consider voting for Biden on the other side of the issue.
You win some, you lose some.
Horse race garbage.
Place yer bets! Place yer bets! 5-to-2! Polls incoming!
. . . Garbage media. 22 paragraphs, most were one sentence. Another insult to democracy.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
“The sad thing about it is those who truly care about democracy did this to themselves by their mismanagement of this issue,” Alzayat said of Biden, with whom he met last week as part of a small group of Muslim American leaders invited to the White House.
And while Muslims are a tiny minority of the overall U.S. population — about half the number of American Jews — they happen to make up a large enough proportion of several battleground states to be at least theoretically capable of swinging an election, were they to pull support from Biden en masse.
Religion Census, run by a consortium of religious institutions and other nonprofit groups, estimated that there were 110,00 Muslim adherents in Arizona total, including people ineligible to vote because they are too young or not citizens.
Wassim Malas, executive director of the Wisconsin Muslim Civic Alliance, said many in his community feel that Biden has failed to recognize the humanity of Palestinian civilians and advocate for their plight as much as he has for Israeli citizens killed in the Oct. 7 terror attack.
Biden’s remarks in an Oval Office address this month urging Israel “not to be blinded by rage” and telling Muslim Americans, “I see you" and "you belong” were helpful, Malas said, noting that the White House seems to be moving in a better direction.
In Minnesota, local Muslim leaders held a press conference Friday setting a deadline of noon Tuesday for Biden to call for a full cease-fire in Gaza or lose their support.
The original article contains 2,021 words, the summary contains 257 words. Saved 87%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
Did you read the article?
" in multiple battleground states that Biden won with thin margins last time, a growing chorus of community leaders say his handling of the war in Gaza and Islamophobia at home jeopardize his path to victory in the Electoral College, with many Muslim American and Arab American voters saying they plan to either stay home next November, vote for a write-in or a third-party presidential candidate, or simply leave the top of the ticket blank."
Not voting for Biden isn't the same as voting for Trump. If it was, then not voting for Trump would mean that they were defacto voting for Biden.
Votes are earned, otherwise people are just hostages. If Biden, and Democrats at large, care about their votes, they'll earn them.
In a 2 party system, not voting for a party that does not rely on voter suppression, is giving a vote to a party that does.
Conservatism needs disenfranchised votes, they always benefit from lower voter turn out.
No, a +1 for Candidate A and a -1 for Candidate B is a swing of 2. A -1 for Candidate B is a swing of 1. 1 =/= 2.
Mathematically yes, you are correct. Politically, no. Conservatism needs low voter turnout to win. More voters = Higher likelihood of a more centrist/progressive victory. There is a reason conservative governments all over the planet are pushing for disenfranchising voters.
Disenfranchising disproportionately affecting one party over another is not the same as “Not voting for X is a vote for Y.”
Were that actually true, Trump would have easily won the 2020 election with 154 million votes, since we’re counting the 80 million nonvoters as votes for him.
Disenfranchising reduces the total number of votes required to get a majority, so not voting for Biden helps whatever republican he ends up going against. Remember how McCarthy only got in the house speakership because Gaetz marked himself as present instead of voting for him? It's the same thing.
So Trump got 80 million extra votes last election and won in a landslide?
No, but Biden could've had an extra 80 million votes were it not for a lot of people being unable to vote.
Yes, I read the article before posting it…
And, yes, in a 2-party, winner-take-all system, not voting is the same as voting for Trump.
On election day, I think most Muslims know that not voting or voting for Trump or any other Republican is directly against their interests.
Votes are earned, otherwise people are just hostages.
Whole lotta Stockholm syndrome in this thread.
And they’re proud of it! This is a whole lot of “if I just love them the right (pun intended) way, they’ll love me back!”
They’re not earned and people are voluntary hostages like their so noble for it.
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Can't blame 'em.
Biden sucks. Biden has ALWAYS sucked. His only selling point was damage control over Trump. But that's thin and a tough sell with his full throated endorsement of Israeli oppression. At no point is real change an option in the voting booth, it's just picking the lesser of two evils. I don't fault those who can't stomach it.
Not voting or voting for Trump will be directly against any interests American Muslims might have regardless of whether Biden "sucks" or not.
In the US 2-party system where the winner takes all, not voting is the same as voting for Trump.
not voting is the same as voting for Trump.
It is not.
Would that mean voting for the party that wanted to ban Muslims from entering the country?
Brilliant, so they can get deported?
Good, don’t vote for Biden, he sucks ass in myriad ways. Different rhetoric, same old white man.
There are progressives running who could use votes. Marianne Williamson, Cenk Uygur to name a few. Vote for them instead.
Doesn't matter if you think Biden "sucks" or not.
In the US 2-party system where the winner takes all, if you vote for a third party, you may as well vote for Trump.
They send different signals. If Trump wins 55% of the vote, and Biden wins 45% of the vote, Democrats realize they need to compromise on contentious issues (maybe ban abortions federally or let insane people buy more guns etc.)
If Trump wins 46% of the vote, Biden wins 42% of the vote, and a super-left party wins 12% of the vote, Democrats realize they need to comrpomise less on contentious issues and become more radical to capture that 12%, while not scaring off the 42% of the vote they have. That 42% probably isn't in favor of genociding Palestinians for example, so that's something Democrats could concede to the far-left to just gain votes.
I get the arguments that for that 4 year period fascists won because of the split between Democrats and actual leftists, but to pretend that the two situations I outlined are literally identical is obviously foolish as hell.
