Muslim Americans voted overwhelmingly for Biden. But community leaders in swing states tell NBC News that the president's handling of the war in Gaza risks losing their support.
Considering that literally the only other options would be objectively worse, and would give the openly fascistic party a better chance at winning, are they wrong tho?
I fucking hate the stranglehold on power that the 2 party system gives to both parties, and how it allows them to hold our votes hostage. But at the same time I'm a pragmatist who understands how electoral politics works, and also someone who understands that while voting won't get you to a utopia, not voting can absolutely help push the country farther and farther away (as we saw in 2016).
I'm absolutely not going to be the guy that tries to guilt people into voting against the fascists even if it means holding their nose for a party they don't like (which is where I've landed), but there really isn't a much better option available that isn't directly against peoples' better interests. I'd love to hear where I'm wrong or overlooking something better, but I haven't seen it yet.
I agree. It's a huge gambit that is unlikely to pay off.
Why? Because despite valid concerns over Israeli aggression and Palestinian oppression, support for Israel is still high and for every Muslim you try to reach out in support you risk ostracizing the predominantly Democratic Jewish voters (which roughly doubles Muslim population) all the same. I'd hate to be the analyst for Biden on that, but it's pretty cut-and-dry.
Right but… they don't want Trump to be president. They want someone like Biden to be (or Biden) and for Biden to not support a brewing 'Hot' Genocide (It was already arguably one and I don't know the proper terms here). It's just that the only leverage they have is withdrawing support. It's a game of chicken.
It's just that the only leverage they have is withdrawing support. It's a game of chicken.
I don't disagree with what you said, but this right here is the most correct. My only point was that their leverage amounts to holding a grenade and pulling the pin. Sure, they'll hurt the Dems for not doing the right thing, but they're still going to hurt themselves much worse.
The problem with that is, because of the duopoly on federal power right now, third parties are neutered on the national level. Voting for them nationally is little more than a token gesture, and does more harm then good.
It sucks, and I hate it, but its also the truth. State and local races benefit more from third party/independent votes, which is where attention should be more focused.
I do sympathize with those disenfranchised by the lesser of two evils party. Its a difficult position to be in.
Do you have the same feelings for those who suffer battered partner syndrome, with children? Why don’t you have the same amount of compassion for millions of us who want to get out of a bad relationship with abusive politicians?
No, because that would imply that I think there are multiple openly fascist parties and I'm asking for clarification on which one they're talking about
As a bystander I'm unimpressed by your unwarranted aggressive stance in this response. Incredibly knee-jerk and lacking in ethos. You could've written the entire comment with the same opinions far more effectively.
My dude, all these comments are unsolicited. Take it or leave it because if your intent is persuasion (lest, what else?), then you're likely wasting everyones' time including your own.
Catch more flies with honey. But take the maga approach substituting aggression for substance if you insist, for the other user seems pretty reasonable and mature.
Yeah, except for the fact where even THREATENING to do anything but meekly go along with it gets you ridicule if not outright hostility, no matter how noble the goal.
If you truly think it sucks, why are you vehemently defending it against viewpoints closer to your own than those of the out of touch establishment?
More Hillary primary voters didnt for for Obama in his general then there were Bernie primary voters that didn't vote for Hillary in the general. So I don't think saying 'we tried that and got Trump' is truthful at all.
Sticking to the two party system will not stop the next fascist, it can only delay them. Look at the past 30 years of presidents, flip flop back and forth some 4 years some 8 but a new face meant it was the other parties turn.
At some point we need to do something different and if you wanna wait for the better smarter fascist that's learns from Trump's mistakes, you're going to have a really bad time.
No shit we need to move away from the system we have. Literally no one here is saying otherwise.
The problem is you're not proposing a solution, you're just saying we should piss on a sign post and call it effective action. It does nothing to help, and actively helps those making things worse.
You want change? Look for something meaningful to do instead of whining that people are rightfully criticizing you for your ineffective actions.
We have proposed the solution and you’re unwilling to try, and this keeping millions of us trapped in the abusive relationship you’re rather happy to be in. BuT bEInG bEaTeN iS sO mUcH bEtTeR tHaN bEiNg StRaNgLeD!
The larger the share of votes third party candidates get the more funding they get from the government to help run candidates that arent already rich or connected or party officials, as well as increasing the incentive for main parties to adopt RCV or IRV to try and get shares those votes. Because as it stands neither party cares enough about third party voters to really do much to court them outside of enforcing two party rule. You're upset that it may lose one or two elections along the way, but don't act like theres no strategy involved in growing the number of third party voters, super disingenuous.
No matter what you think of my plan, it's more thought out than your plan for RCV which im dying to hear.
The problem is that your "couple elections here and there" have massive implications nationwide, while the "progress" it promises is little more than a trickle at best.
You want to take a couple steps forward toward your own goal? Do it! But don't espouse everyone else take a massive leap backwards so you can have your token change.
I think third parties are a good idea… at a state and local level. Where they actual have a chance. But advocating for them on a national level is foolhardy at best, and downright regressive at worst.
You want to take a couple steps forward toward your own goal? Do it! But don’t espouse everyone else take a massive leap backwards so you can have your token change.
Well if you want to slow walk further into the electoral conditions that give rise to fascism, do it! but Don't espouse that everyone else has to follow you folly and agree with your absurd notion of changing things by patiently waiting for the people who will always have your vote to do something they're not already doing.
The so called "Most progressive president of all time" is a Rail Strike Breaker, which subsequently resulted in the Ohio spill among others, and a financier of far right genocide. If you can't respect someone to whom literal genocide is their single issue vote then I have little faith in your understanding of US politics and voter demographics. "Trump COULD be worse" isn't gonna win Biden any votes with them, because only a fool would vote for a genocide under the logic that the other guy may also do a genocide.
You're slow walk into American Fascism is no more noble than someone trying to do something actually different in hopes of different results. Still waiting on that plan of yours.
No, you tried going along with the neoliberal way of doing things and everything went so shitty for regular people that a lot of those who were already most vulnerable to demagoguery were radicalised to the point of Trump.
Last time I acted on a threat like this, we got Bush Jr. I absolutely did not want to see Tipper Fucking Gore in the White House again, so I voted Green Party. Turns out, me and a bunch of other people doing the same thing almost certainly resulted in the resulting 20 years of constant war, and the deaths of countless innocent civilian non-combatants. I really do believe that blood is on my hands.
Every potential US president with any real chance of winning - all of them - will support Israel. Taking voting action that will lead to a guy who will not only continue to support Israel, but will fan the fires of anti-Islamic rhetoric, and is also a right-wing white supremicist who openly hates poor people… that's the definition of "cutting off your nose to spite your face."
They're angry. I*m angry. My representatives know I think our support of Israel in this genocide is unconscionable. Threatening to not vote for the lesser of two evils is an understandable statement of frustration, but until there's a credible alternative candidate who says they'd cut military support for Israel… well, it's just punching a brick wall.
Last time I acted on a threat like this, we got Bush Jr.
puts on mechanic outfit that's your problem right there! You've got your intended effect meter on backwards. puts it back to "politician acts on threat from constituents"
I really do believe that blood is on my hands.
Blaming yourself for what others do is a classic sign of being in a toxic relationship. You didn't invent the undemocratuc Electoral College, without which Dubya would never have been president and none of his war crimes were suggested by you.
Every potential US president with any real chance of winning - all of them - will support Israel.
Yeah, as long as people like you reinforce the toxic status quo by doing their best to vehemently oppose every attempt to hold them accountable.
My representatives know I think our support of Israel in this genocide is unconscionable.
And your representative also knows that they can count on you and others to run interference every time someone tries to effect meaningful change.
Threatening to not vote for the lesser of two evils is an understandable statement of frustration, but until there's a credible alternative candidate who says they'd cut military support for Israel… well, it's just punching a brick wall.
You would have told Martin Luther King to cut it out with the "brick wall punching" for sure.
I get that not voting for Biden is bad, and so I will, but I'm so very tired of people blaming voters for not being excited for shitty candidates. Give us good candidates for once, please.
Lesser evilists are no small part of why the two party system continues on undisturbed. Free propagandists that are convinced the only way to fix this is to continue to not disturb the system that continues to produce further right candidates every term.
Whats the definition of insanity again?
But my favorite part is instead of doing anything civicly productive, they would rather simply yell at the citizens who don't think and vote the same way they do.
And yet people constantly harping about voting about voting for third parties in a system that doesn't support it totally isn't screaming into the wind over and over.
I dont disagree that we need a change… but voting for third party national candidates isn't the way to do it.
Abused minority: attempts to use the only leverage they have to influence policy away from full-throated support of an ongoing genocide
Neoliberals and their useful idiots: "You must want fascism!" 🤦
Considering that literally the only other options would be objectively worse, and would give the openly fascistic party a better chance at winning, are they wrong tho?
I fucking hate the stranglehold on power that the 2 party system gives to both parties, and how it allows them to hold our votes hostage. But at the same time I'm a pragmatist who understands how electoral politics works, and also someone who understands that while voting won't get you to a utopia, not voting can absolutely help push the country farther and farther away (as we saw in 2016).
I'm absolutely not going to be the guy that tries to guilt people into voting against the fascists even if it means holding their nose for a party they don't like (which is where I've landed), but there really isn't a much better option available that isn't directly against peoples' better interests. I'd love to hear where I'm wrong or overlooking something better, but I haven't seen it yet.
I agree. It's a huge gambit that is unlikely to pay off.
Why? Because despite valid concerns over Israeli aggression and Palestinian oppression, support for Israel is still high and for every Muslim you try to reach out in support you risk ostracizing the predominantly Democratic Jewish voters (which roughly doubles Muslim population) all the same. I'd hate to be the analyst for Biden on that, but it's pretty cut-and-dry.
Right but… they don't want Trump to be president. They want someone like Biden to be (or Biden) and for Biden to not support a brewing 'Hot' Genocide (It was already arguably one and I don't know the proper terms here). It's just that the only leverage they have is withdrawing support. It's a game of chicken.
I don't disagree with what you said, but this right here is the most correct. My only point was that their leverage amounts to holding a grenade and pulling the pin. Sure, they'll hurt the Dems for not doing the right thing, but they're still going to hurt themselves much worse.
Orrrrr all the ones who claim third parties can’t win could actually find a decent nominee and vote for them.
I’ll take: things that will never happen for a thousand. We keep doing what works against us rather than try something that will.
The problem with that is, because of the duopoly on federal power right now, third parties are neutered on the national level. Voting for them nationally is little more than a token gesture, and does more harm then good.
It sucks, and I hate it, but its also the truth. State and local races benefit more from third party/independent votes, which is where attention should be more focused.
I do sympathize with those disenfranchised by the lesser of two evils party. Its a difficult position to be in.
It’s sad that you can’t imagine enough people getting over their “protect the abuser at all costs” to actually try.
75 million people voted for Trump. More than that many people would need to try. Together.
We're still struggling to get unions at individual workplaces to be commonplace. I dont think my doubts are particularly unfounded.
Do you have the same feelings for those who suffer battered partner syndrome, with children? Why don’t you have the same amount of compassion for millions of us who want to get out of a bad relationship with abusive politicians?
What openly fascist party?
The proper grammar here is “which”
No, because that would imply that I think there are multiple openly fascist parties and I'm asking for clarification on which one they're talking about
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As a bystander I'm unimpressed by your unwarranted aggressive stance in this response. Incredibly knee-jerk and lacking in ethos. You could've written the entire comment with the same opinions far more effectively.
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My dude, all these comments are unsolicited. Take it or leave it because if your intent is persuasion (lest, what else?), then you're likely wasting everyones' time including your own.
Catch more flies with honey. But take the maga approach substituting aggression for substance if you insist, for the other user seems pretty reasonable and mature.
Tell me you don't understand electoral politics without telling me that you don't understand electoral politics.
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That's how first past the post voting works. It sucks, but until that changes it's what we got.
Yeah, except for the fact where even THREATENING to do anything but meekly go along with it gets you ridicule if not outright hostility, no matter how noble the goal.
If you truly think it sucks, why are you vehemently defending it against viewpoints closer to your own than those of the out of touch establishment?
Because we tried that and got Trump. That's the risk here.
More Hillary primary voters didnt for for Obama in his general then there were Bernie primary voters that didn't vote for Hillary in the general. So I don't think saying 'we tried that and got Trump' is truthful at all.
Sticking to the two party system will not stop the next fascist, it can only delay them. Look at the past 30 years of presidents, flip flop back and forth some 4 years some 8 but a new face meant it was the other parties turn.
At some point we need to do something different and if you wanna wait for the better smarter fascist that's learns from Trump's mistakes, you're going to have a really bad time.
No shit we need to move away from the system we have. Literally no one here is saying otherwise.
The problem is you're not proposing a solution, you're just saying we should piss on a sign post and call it effective action. It does nothing to help, and actively helps those making things worse.
You want change? Look for something meaningful to do instead of whining that people are rightfully criticizing you for your ineffective actions.
We have proposed the solution and you’re unwilling to try, and this keeping millions of us trapped in the abusive relationship you’re rather happy to be in. BuT bEInG bEaTeN iS sO mUcH bEtTeR tHaN bEiNg StRaNgLeD!
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The larger the share of votes third party candidates get the more funding they get from the government to help run candidates that arent already rich or connected or party officials, as well as increasing the incentive for main parties to adopt RCV or IRV to try and get shares those votes. Because as it stands neither party cares enough about third party voters to really do much to court them outside of enforcing two party rule. You're upset that it may lose one or two elections along the way, but don't act like theres no strategy involved in growing the number of third party voters, super disingenuous.
No matter what you think of my plan, it's more thought out than your plan for RCV which im dying to hear.
The problem is that your "couple elections here and there" have massive implications nationwide, while the "progress" it promises is little more than a trickle at best.
You want to take a couple steps forward toward your own goal? Do it! But don't espouse everyone else take a massive leap backwards so you can have your token change.
I think third parties are a good idea… at a state and local level. Where they actual have a chance. But advocating for them on a national level is foolhardy at best, and downright regressive at worst.
Well if you want to slow walk further into the electoral conditions that give rise to fascism, do it! but Don't espouse that everyone else has to follow you folly and agree with your absurd notion of changing things by patiently waiting for the people who will always have your vote to do something they're not already doing.
The so called "Most progressive president of all time" is a Rail Strike Breaker, which subsequently resulted in the Ohio spill among others, and a financier of far right genocide. If you can't respect someone to whom literal genocide is their single issue vote then I have little faith in your understanding of US politics and voter demographics. "Trump COULD be worse" isn't gonna win Biden any votes with them, because only a fool would vote for a genocide under the logic that the other guy may also do a genocide.
You're slow walk into American Fascism is no more noble than someone trying to do something actually different in hopes of different results. Still waiting on that plan of yours.
No, you tried going along with the neoliberal way of doing things and everything went so shitty for regular people that a lot of those who were already most vulnerable to demagoguery were radicalised to the point of Trump.
Last time I acted on a threat like this, we got Bush Jr. I absolutely did not want to see Tipper Fucking Gore in the White House again, so I voted Green Party. Turns out, me and a bunch of other people doing the same thing almost certainly resulted in the resulting 20 years of constant war, and the deaths of countless innocent civilian non-combatants. I really do believe that blood is on my hands.
Every potential US president with any real chance of winning - all of them - will support Israel. Taking voting action that will lead to a guy who will not only continue to support Israel, but will fan the fires of anti-Islamic rhetoric, and is also a right-wing white supremicist who openly hates poor people… that's the definition of "cutting off your nose to spite your face."
They're angry. I*m angry. My representatives know I think our support of Israel in this genocide is unconscionable. Threatening to not vote for the lesser of two evils is an understandable statement of frustration, but until there's a credible alternative candidate who says they'd cut military support for Israel… well, it's just punching a brick wall.
puts on mechanic outfit that's your problem right there! You've got your intended effect meter on backwards. puts it back to "politician acts on threat from constituents"
Blaming yourself for what others do is a classic sign of being in a toxic relationship. You didn't invent the undemocratuc Electoral College, without which Dubya would never have been president and none of his war crimes were suggested by you.
Yeah, as long as people like you reinforce the toxic status quo by doing their best to vehemently oppose every attempt to hold them accountable.
And your representative also knows that they can count on you and others to run interference every time someone tries to effect meaningful change.
You would have told Martin Luther King to cut it out with the "brick wall punching" for sure.
One tiny correction: SCOTUS appointed W.
https://www.history.com/news/2000-election-bush-gore-votes-supreme-court
I know, but they wouldn't have gotten the opportunity to do so if not for the EC.
I get that not voting for Biden is bad, and so I will, but I'm so very tired of people blaming voters for not being excited for shitty candidates. Give us good candidates for once, please.
Well we almost got Bernie before the DNC decided he couldn't win and went again him.
You want to vote for a Kennedy this year? Not one of the cool ones (they are all dead) one of the weird ones.
Lesser evilists are no small part of why the two party system continues on undisturbed. Free propagandists that are convinced the only way to fix this is to continue to not disturb the system that continues to produce further right candidates every term.
Whats the definition of insanity again?
But my favorite part is instead of doing anything civicly productive, they would rather simply yell at the citizens who don't think and vote the same way they do.
I mean it's literally proven with math that FPTP voting systems descend into duopolies but whatever makes you feel superior
And yet people constantly harping about voting about voting for third parties in a system that doesn't support it totally isn't screaming into the wind over and over.
I dont disagree that we need a change… but voting for third party national candidates isn't the way to do it.