Being “pro Israel” or “pro Palestine” are problematic positions. You don’t have to pick which of the bad guys you like more. There is no rule that says you have to have a side
I have long standing sympathies for the people of Palestine. But, they choose monsters to represent them who have never been good faith negotiators for a peaceful solution that doesn’t require genicide.
The Israelis also choose monsters to represent them. Among the other colonialist behaviors, they pursue a settlement strategy that is specifically designed to make a 2 state peace impossible.
No good guys. Stop telling everyone which side you’re on! You just telling me which color terrorist you prefer.
Afaik, like over half the population of Palestine wasn't even alive or were children when that decision was made and nobody has been given a decision since, at least not the kind of decision that doesn't involve becoming a martyr and deading yourself in exchange for deading another person.
I suppose I have no data points to tell me what is in the hearts of the majority of gaza civilians. I could I suppose, fill it in with good will and brotherhood toward man. I could fill it in with genocidal intent.
Either way, it is my choice since I can’t really know. I am not so desperate to find a good guy, that I will lie to myself and pretend I know a truth. My hunch is that the truth would be upsetting for the folks desperate to find the good guys. What about that environment would produce a culture of peace and good will?
There is data, though I won't pretend to know the exact numbers - and it needs to be remembered that polling is difficult is places like Gaza - that suggests that a majority of Gazans do support violence against Israeli civilians.
Sounds like it's high time for a change in leadership!
…and nobody has been given a decision…
Wikipedia would call those 'weasel words', passive voice. Been given? Who's going to give it to them? They're independent and self-governing. If they don't agree with the actions of their leaders, they need to change leaders; neither Israel nor anybody else can do that for them.
If Hamas doesn't represent the Palestinians, and refuses to step aside, that makes them bad guys twice over: terrorists to Israel and tyrants to the Palestinians. My understanding is that they're pretty popular, though.
I worded things exactly as I meant them. They haven't been given a decision that doesn't involve a probably violent uprising, so they would have to make their own opportunity but authoritarians tend not to like that thus the deading oneself part of my comment. I think we agree ultimately.
Yeah, I read a breakdown of governance is Gaza, and it was honestly bewildering: Hamas has a few different wings for civilian and military governance, and then there's the Palestinian Authority which plays some kind of role, and a Hezbollah influence… It's a fucking mess, and it's a shame. But honestly: there's nobody in a position to help the Palestinians to pick more reasonable leaders, except possibly Iran or the Saudis exerting influence, which they're not inclined to do, because to them the Palestinians are just a piece on a chessboard.
Honestly it might help the Palestinians (though not Hamas) if Israel and Saudi Arabia normalized relationships, if only because they'd be a less useful chess piece.
This is a really refreshing perspective that's been way too rare.
I wouldn't say that I've taken a side, and I don't think that's a productive way to analyze this issue. The way I see it, there are actions that contribute to peace, and there are actions that push it further away. I support the first and oppose the second, regardless of who's doing them.
And unfortunately, there hasn't been much of the first from either party.
Being “pro Israel” or “pro Palestine” are problematic positions. You don’t have to pick which of the bad guys you like more. There is no rule that says you have to have a side
I have long standing sympathies for the people of Palestine. But, they choose monsters to represent them who have never been good faith negotiators for a peaceful solution that doesn’t require genicide.
The Israelis also choose monsters to represent them. Among the other colonialist behaviors, they pursue a settlement strategy that is specifically designed to make a 2 state peace impossible.
No good guys. Stop telling everyone which side you’re on! You just telling me which color terrorist you prefer.
Afaik, like over half the population of Palestine wasn't even alive or were children when that decision was made and nobody has been given a decision since, at least not the kind of decision that doesn't involve becoming a martyr and deading yourself in exchange for deading another person.
I suppose I have no data points to tell me what is in the hearts of the majority of gaza civilians. I could I suppose, fill it in with good will and brotherhood toward man. I could fill it in with genocidal intent.
Either way, it is my choice since I can’t really know. I am not so desperate to find a good guy, that I will lie to myself and pretend I know a truth. My hunch is that the truth would be upsetting for the folks desperate to find the good guys. What about that environment would produce a culture of peace and good will?
There is data, though I won't pretend to know the exact numbers - and it needs to be remembered that polling is difficult is places like Gaza - that suggests that a majority of Gazans do support violence against Israeli civilians.
deleted by creator
Sounds like it's high time for a change in leadership!
Wikipedia would call those 'weasel words', passive voice. Been given? Who's going to give it to them? They're independent and self-governing. If they don't agree with the actions of their leaders, they need to change leaders; neither Israel nor anybody else can do that for them.
If Hamas doesn't represent the Palestinians, and refuses to step aside, that makes them bad guys twice over: terrorists to Israel and tyrants to the Palestinians. My understanding is that they're pretty popular, though.
I worded things exactly as I meant them. They haven't been given a decision that doesn't involve a probably violent uprising, so they would have to make their own opportunity but authoritarians tend not to like that thus the deading oneself part of my comment. I think we agree ultimately.
As far as Palestinian's support for Hamas goes, I find that the whole story is honestly kind of nuanced the more I read. https://theconversation.com/hamas-was-unpopular-in-gaza-before-it-attacked-israel-surveys-showed-gazans-cared-more-about-fighting-poverty-than-armed-resistance-215640
Yeah, I read a breakdown of governance is Gaza, and it was honestly bewildering: Hamas has a few different wings for civilian and military governance, and then there's the Palestinian Authority which plays some kind of role, and a Hezbollah influence… It's a fucking mess, and it's a shame. But honestly: there's nobody in a position to help the Palestinians to pick more reasonable leaders, except possibly Iran or the Saudis exerting influence, which they're not inclined to do, because to them the Palestinians are just a piece on a chessboard.
Honestly it might help the Palestinians (though not Hamas) if Israel and Saudi Arabia normalized relationships, if only because they'd be a less useful chess piece.
Go Mongooses! 🚩
They did actually. There were two ceasefires in the past and it was Israel who didn't follow them by lifting the blockade.
This is a really refreshing perspective that's been way too rare.
I wouldn't say that I've taken a side, and I don't think that's a productive way to analyze this issue. The way I see it, there are actions that contribute to peace, and there are actions that push it further away. I support the first and oppose the second, regardless of who's doing them.
And unfortunately, there hasn't been much of the first from either party.