by default a fallacy if we want both parties to be equal
But they're not equal and a good part of the world still doesn't want them to be equal. And that you have realize that you can most definitely have pride in being gay and also as a means to fight back homophobia that has absolutely nothing to do with "straight pride" because straights are not oppressed. You can't present your argument in a sterile environment when this word has history and has a live movement behind it. It's definitely not just being proud alone of which I have many reasons to be, but it's also about fighting back.
even suggesting it might be a slight problem in the far future is unacceptable
Yeah, and it's a wedge for a supposed future problem that you have imagined and are trying to create discussion about right now. Given the state of things with white supremacy and bigots on the rise, do you really think that kind of discussion is going to be welcomed? Like I said, if you're not LGBT you're not a targeted community for that specifically. I got my livelihood on the line and my mental health and I don't intend to give bigots one inch. Bad rhetoric breeds bad rhetoric so don't expect me to be tolerant of even breaching the subject that's not constructive in any way but comes across as blindly privileged if not a bit clueless.
I said it’s weird to have pride for something like that, be it gay or straight.
And that's fine if you think that, but like I said, what am I to do about the imposed sense of shame that I've been hearing about since I was 5? Just stop calling it pride because some tone-deaf folk or someone with an agenda wants their black & white parade? Or because someone can't see the bigger picture? In a sense, I'm being asked to be disarmed of one of the most politically powerful and humanitarian movements in history for the sake of argument. I give up a powerful device that derives a sense of self-worth and community for nothing in return. It's ridiculous.
It's important to express it because representation & visibility in the media matters, and that yearly reminder that we're still here and that we have numbers also matters. It's not just for the bigots but for ourselves growing up as well. I'm not sure you realize the impact that Pride has on teens and young adults for their self esteem, what a lighthouse signal it is to let our guards down, and what a difference it makes to see some hope that there's an active effort to change the world for the better. I grew up with that and I wish more people did because I still see so much self hate of which I have many stories. Especially when we get so many horrible news from all over the world about queer people being murdered and get our rights taken away. I mean, just last week one of our openly queer magistrates from a state over and his partner were stabbed to death in their own residence after receiving death threats. And this is after another LGBT+ activist was murdered in cold blood back in July.
You say “straight pride” doesn’t need to exist, but you don’t think that as a consequence they have to be ashamed about it, do you?
I said no such thing. I said that gay pride exists because there's a need for it to exist, and that need isn't going away anytime soon. Like I said, be glad that you don't feel the need to derive a sense of self-worth or community for your basic human rights. I can't even describe nicely what it looks like for me to see you criticize from a comfortable chair in a sterile environment.
Am I not allowed to make conjectures on the internet that in no way harm the progress your community is trying to achieve, in the meantime?
You're allowed to, just like everyone is allowed their misinformed opinions, but that doesn't save anyone from the push back. My point is that it's a frivolous discussion marred in the oversimplification of the term based on a misconception that I hear too often. Sorry but this discussion is not new and it's often attached to some bigoted ideas regardless of your good intentions, and that's my real issue. I get your point, that it sounds absurd, but context is everything.
And that’s fine if you think that, but like I said, what am I to do about the imposed sense of shame that I’ve been hearing about since I was 5? Just stop calling it pride because some tone-deaf folk or someone with an agenda wants their black & white parade? Or because someone can’t see the bigger picture? In a sense, I’m being asked to be disarmed of one of the most politically powerful and humanitarian movements in history for the sake of argument.
I’m not asking for you (or anyone) to do anything, I’m just discussing on the internet. If you think adapting the current situation to avoid the fallacy is not worth it, by all means do what you feel is better. Being straight and European I’m clearly less informed on the subject than you, so it makes sense that you would want to stick to your beliefs, I’m not surprised and I’m not bitter or anything about it. As we already said, the world has far worse problems than a speech fallacy skewed in favor of a heavily oppressed community.
It’s important to express it because representation & visibility in the media matters, and that yearly reminder that we’re still here and that we have numbers also matters. It’s not just for the bigots but for ourselves growing up as well. I’m not sure you realize the impact that Pride has on teens and young adults for their self esteem, what a lighthouse signal it is to let our guards down, and what a difference it makes to see some hope that there’s an active effort to change the world for the better. I grew up with that and I wish more people did because I still see so much self hate of which I have many stories.
Maybe I wasn’t clear enough about it earlier, but I have absolutely nothing against “Pride” as an event. I’ve never been to one but from stories, pictures and videos I’ve seen it seems like sort of a huge carnival spreading messages of acceptance and peace, that’s wonderful and I love that it’s happening. I was talking more about the idiom (my original comment wasn’t even about sexuality), and people saying they’re “proud of being (anything they were born as)”. I think I even discussed with another commenter how the event being called “Gay Pride” is something that’s set in stone and part of universal speech, so at this point it wouldn’t be worth it to rename it just to make it “slightly less controversial” (like the whole debate about “blacklist” or “male and female” adapters).
I said no such thing. I said that gay pride exists because there’s a need for it to exist, and that need isn’t going away anytime soon. Like I said, be glad that you don’t feel the need to derive a sense of self-worth or community for your basic human rights.
I know, it was just an example of how someone can feel neither shameful nor prideful about something.
You’re allowed to, just like everyone is allowed their misinformed opinions, but that doesn’t save anyone from the push back. My point is that it’s a frivolous discussion marred in the oversimplification of the term based on a misconception that I hear too often. Sorry but this discussion is not new and it’s often attached to some bigoted ideas regardless of your good intentions, and that’s my real issue. I get your point, that it sounds absurd, but context is everything.
Sure, I never denied it being frivolous, and I tried discussing it on a place like Lemmy especially because if I did it in a less left-leaning community the comments would’ve just been filled with bigots turning my argument into an excuse to insult. In a place like this where mostly everyone knows there’s no gay lobby trying to control the world or anything, I feel like you can discuss these things in a more relaxed and detached way.
But they're not equal and a good part of the world still doesn't want them to be equal. And that you have realize that you can most definitely have pride in being gay and also as a means to fight back homophobia that has absolutely nothing to do with "straight pride" because straights are not oppressed. You can't present your argument in a sterile environment when this word has history and has a live movement behind it. It's definitely not just being proud alone of which I have many reasons to be, but it's also about fighting back.
Yeah, and it's a wedge for a supposed future problem that you have imagined and are trying to create discussion about right now. Given the state of things with white supremacy and bigots on the rise, do you really think that kind of discussion is going to be welcomed? Like I said, if you're not LGBT you're not a targeted community for that specifically. I got my livelihood on the line and my mental health and I don't intend to give bigots one inch. Bad rhetoric breeds bad rhetoric so don't expect me to be tolerant of even breaching the subject that's not constructive in any way but comes across as blindly privileged if not a bit clueless.
And that's fine if you think that, but like I said, what am I to do about the imposed sense of shame that I've been hearing about since I was 5? Just stop calling it pride because some tone-deaf folk or someone with an agenda wants their black & white parade? Or because someone can't see the bigger picture? In a sense, I'm being asked to be disarmed of one of the most politically powerful and humanitarian movements in history for the sake of argument. I give up a powerful device that derives a sense of self-worth and community for nothing in return. It's ridiculous.
It's important to express it because representation & visibility in the media matters, and that yearly reminder that we're still here and that we have numbers also matters. It's not just for the bigots but for ourselves growing up as well. I'm not sure you realize the impact that Pride has on teens and young adults for their self esteem, what a lighthouse signal it is to let our guards down, and what a difference it makes to see some hope that there's an active effort to change the world for the better. I grew up with that and I wish more people did because I still see so much self hate of which I have many stories. Especially when we get so many horrible news from all over the world about queer people being murdered and get our rights taken away. I mean, just last week one of our openly queer magistrates from a state over and his partner were stabbed to death in their own residence after receiving death threats. And this is after another LGBT+ activist was murdered in cold blood back in July.
I said no such thing. I said that gay pride exists because there's a need for it to exist, and that need isn't going away anytime soon. Like I said, be glad that you don't feel the need to derive a sense of self-worth or community for your basic human rights. I can't even describe nicely what it looks like for me to see you criticize from a comfortable chair in a sterile environment.
You're allowed to, just like everyone is allowed their misinformed opinions, but that doesn't save anyone from the push back. My point is that it's a frivolous discussion marred in the oversimplification of the term based on a misconception that I hear too often. Sorry but this discussion is not new and it's often attached to some bigoted ideas regardless of your good intentions, and that's my real issue. I get your point, that it sounds absurd, but context is everything.
I’m not asking for you (or anyone) to do anything, I’m just discussing on the internet. If you think adapting the current situation to avoid the fallacy is not worth it, by all means do what you feel is better. Being straight and European I’m clearly less informed on the subject than you, so it makes sense that you would want to stick to your beliefs, I’m not surprised and I’m not bitter or anything about it. As we already said, the world has far worse problems than a speech fallacy skewed in favor of a heavily oppressed community.
Maybe I wasn’t clear enough about it earlier, but I have absolutely nothing against “Pride” as an event. I’ve never been to one but from stories, pictures and videos I’ve seen it seems like sort of a huge carnival spreading messages of acceptance and peace, that’s wonderful and I love that it’s happening. I was talking more about the idiom (my original comment wasn’t even about sexuality), and people saying they’re “proud of being (anything they were born as)”. I think I even discussed with another commenter how the event being called “Gay Pride” is something that’s set in stone and part of universal speech, so at this point it wouldn’t be worth it to rename it just to make it “slightly less controversial” (like the whole debate about “blacklist” or “male and female” adapters).
I know, it was just an example of how someone can feel neither shameful nor prideful about something.
Sure, I never denied it being frivolous, and I tried discussing it on a place like Lemmy especially because if I did it in a less left-leaning community the comments would’ve just been filled with bigots turning my argument into an excuse to insult. In a place like this where mostly everyone knows there’s no gay lobby trying to control the world or anything, I feel like you can discuss these things in a more relaxed and detached way.