One guy wants to work on Civil rights, taxes, and social services.
The other guy wants to jail anyone who said mean things about him, suspend the constitution, and immediately apon being sworn in use the military to institute the insurrection act and declare martial law.
As someone who was centrist: you can't be centrist when one person is motivated by spite to tear it down. You aren't a centrist anymore. You're an accessory.
Liberals are always the first to fall in line with fascists - the first regional governments of the Nazis in Germany was supported by libertarians and pro-economy-parties, a couple of years ago. 3 years ago the Neo-Liberal party in Thuringia accepted to govern as a minority-government when the only party supporting them was the far-right AfD with a leader that you can legally call a fascist and that is under surveillance by the Verfassungsschutz for being a danger to democracy.
The CDU (moderate-conservative party) in Germany also won't work with either the left party nor the AfD but their local politicians are already getting very close with the AfD.
If someone's claiming "both sides" in a political issue that's usually a sign that they won't oppose the fascists when they try to grab the power
At the end of the day, someone who sees both sides as the same is saying they don't care about LGBT people or abortion rights or ethnic minorities. It's impossible to care about them and still believe the two parties are close enough that it won't matter who wins.
Doesn't matter if they're a self described communist or crony capitalist. Scratch them and a fascist will bleed.
Liberals are always the first to fall in line with fascists
"Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds" is how the saying goes. In the US right now there is no real left political force, despite there being many individual leftists. The one thing the political system has done there above all is remove all impediments for capitalism to flourish. That goes back to the Populist movement and Jim Crow order, Eugene Debs, the Taft-Hartley act, removing any notion of class analysis from academia. Now you have the choice between how you want capitalism to be branded basically, is it Democrat happy everything is fine capitalism, or GOP get rich or die capitalism, but it's bootstrap policy all the way down.
Not in the US but I kind of apply this to the Democratic party itself. Obviously they aren't outright fash-branded like this GOP faction and strategically voting for them is like a forced thing at this point, but they are objectively a center-right party, and I believe the economic policies they promote are in effect an accessory to the GOP's. What's more is Democrat PACs actually give money to run ads on behalf of the most fash GOP primary candidates as part of a strategy to get them easier opponents, and it's worked before, but it also directly enables that faction to gain more ground over multiple election cycles. Like Hillary wanted to run against Trump, they helped him get the nomination, how funny would that be if the GOP had Trump as a candidate, they'd be a laughingstock!
I feel like this whole thing is a downward spiral with two factions that aren't really even offering economic alternatives at this point because the neoliberal market based "freedom" is basically consented too. It's like do you want the happy Democrat branding of this or the fashy GOP branding while it all spirals out of control.
I generally give Republicans more benefit of the doubt than most. I consider myself a liberal libertarian with an open mind to all things. I think there were plenty of valid reasons to vote for Trump the first time around, reasons that much of the country chose to ignore because it was easier than addressing them.
If the GOP nominates Trump again, they deserve to lose as hardcore as possible. I didn't scream and cry when he was elected because I was willing to give him a chance and an open mind. But I think his first term said everything that needed to be said about his suitability as a leader. He talked a big talk of draining the swamp, but then filled his cabinet with alligators and no swamps were drained. If anything, swamps were created as he filled key positions with corrupt people who were loyal to him but had little experience or skill for the job at hand.
Love his policies or hate them, that's just corrupt bad government. And while I don't always agree with Biden's policies, much like Obama, he at least executes the duties of his office in a relatively competent manner.
Same thing if DeSantis gets the nomination. You can't run a platform of jobs creation when you pick a hissy fit with your state's largest employer because they dare voice some mild opposition to a policy of yours (especially when said opposition is essential for said company to maintain credibility on the national level). That speaks volumes about the kind of person, and the kind of leader, that you are. I would rather have someone who's policies I sometimes disagree with, then a childishly vindictive psychophant sitting in the big chair.
Sadly, this all is the very predictable result of the Karl Rove strategy- whip up social conservatives and evangelicals to drum up votes. The result is those groups now have significant power within the GOP, even though their platform of intolerant policies is unappealing to the broader nation to the point of making them unelectable in the eyes of many.
I said there were plenty of valid reasons to vote for Trump. For example, if you wanted American manufacturing, the idea of a tariff on Chinese goods was appealing. If you favor border security he was your guy. If you favor gun rights Hillary sure as fuck wasn't for you. Etc etc.
And overall- Hillary was a very 'middle of the road status quo' candidate and the nation wanted real reform. Trump represented change- perhaps not good change, but change.
Not arguing the merits of any of those points. Just saying if you want those things, his platform was the more appealing one.
Following him would reveal plenty of good reasons NOT to vote for him also. Dishonesty, misogyny/sexual harassment, tax evasion, borderline racism, and a lot of his rhetoric felt a little too close to Hitler's for my taste.
Personally I didn't vote for him- I voted 3rd party (in my solid blue state of CT, my vote doesn't matter either way). But I could understand why people did, and I had hopes- I hoped that either when he won the primary or the general the 'yuuuge!' personality would go away and the intelligence a lot of people claim he has would emerge, and we'd be left with, if not a true statesman, someone approaching a mature adult who would get to work solving the nation's challenges.
As it stands, what we got was pretty close to what his critics had claimed would happen- a Presidency full of scandals and corruption, with his own loyalists placed in key positions they were wholly unqualified for. And from what I've read, it was widely known in foreign intelligence circles that if you wanted him on your side, just book a few million bucks worth of boondoggles at mar-a-lago and kiss his ass a few times and he'd be your buddy. Obviously not what we need in a President.
But that's all my point. Going into it, there were valid reasons for wanting him. Now, there may still be desirable items on his agenda, but he's proven himself ineffective at implementing any of those items. So now, this time round, I'd say if you vote for him (especially in the primary) you're a moron because you're putting forward someone Biden's almost certainly gonna crush, who was disappointing the first time around and arguably treasonous.
What I mean is Trump is a known liar and conman. Anyone who knew anything about Trump knew he was lying out of his ass, and wouldn't do anything he promised.
Honestly part of the reason I gave him benefit of doubt is a few conversations I had with someone who worked extensively on a real estate project with Trump They said Trump did some slightly underhanded shit that screwed some people over, but it was obvious he had a very sharp mind and was thinking far ahead of anyone else at the table; that the 'yuuge' personality was a smokescreen to look stupid so people didn't realize how truly sharp he was. The person I spoke with lost some opportunities as a result of Trump's underhanded operations, but ended up with strong respect for the guy as a businessman and a leader. The person felt that if Trump used his capabilities on behalf of the nation, we'd all benefit.
I was hoping we'd see in the White House some glimmer of what the person I spoke with saw in the real estate deal. Unfortunately we did not. Or if we did, it was only in service of Trump, not in service of the nation.
And while Trump may be a known liar and a conman, when the opponent is quoted as saying you have to have a public and a private position on issues (in other words, lie and tell people what they want to hear) it's hard to worry too much.
Had Biden been the nominee he'd almost certainly have beaten Trump. Or Bernie, he'd have done well.
Step past your hatred of the guy and look for some nuance my friend.
The person I spoke with didn't like Trump, but admired Trump's sharp mind and strategic brain that could out-think a lot of very smart people. Their belief was that Trump is sharp as a tack but just pretends to be an idiot so people underestimate him.
Being the smartest guy in the room, being able to come to a negotiation and sweep the board when nobody sees it coming is never a bad quality for a President. THAT is what they respected-- the ability to do that to a bunch of very smart people.
Trumps genius is in his ability to sell himself. The guy got bamboozled by a known fraud, conman, and narcissist.
It's not like he came out of nowhere, his bombastic dishonesty was no secret, and he made it crystal clear during the campaign that he had nothing to do with honesty and truth.
While I hoped he would change his tune when he became president, and held out hope there, it should have come to zero surprise that he is who has always been and giving him the "benefit of the doubt" was being extremely generous, if not outright naive.
Anyone giving Trump any sort of benefit of the doubt even in 2016 could only generously be described as extremely ignorant. Trump had even at the time an extremely proven track record, and all of us proclaiming doom and gloom if he got elected were proven right over and over. The only surprise from any of this is that he didn't start a war and instead just managed to create enough instability to lead us where we are now with Israel/Palestine and especially Russia/Ukraine. Like, there was a lot of us telling everyone exactly what was going to happen in 2016, whether that was Roe, the racist immigration shit, the threat of a pandemic, the growing wealth inequality, his ability to handle something like Hurricane Maria, etc. We knew he was a rapist then. We knew he was a conman then. He had already mocked the disabled, military families, called hispanics murderers, rapists and drug dealers. He already and still maintained the Central Park Five, who'd long been exonerated, should have been put to death. Fuck's sake the only reason he started running basically was because he got a lot of attention for the birther bullshit which tbh wasn't even a dog whistle and he might have just as well had a klan hood on during that whole thing.
I'm not sure if it's more an indictment of the media, the education system, or just Republicans working for generations to do exactly what they have that literally anyone could give him the benefit of the doubt.
Even in this very thread, we're doing their work for them. Biden's been a fairly successful president by most normal metrics, and the only thing the media (and half of this thread) want to talk about is that he's old. Meanwhile, Trump is actually, routinely now showing that he's losing his faculties and he's a spry 3 years younger with the diet of a frat party at 2am and the exercise regimen of a russet potato, but yes, let's really dissect if Biden's putting out an international fire fast enough as if the alternative in Trump wouldn't be literally to throw matches and gas at the problem.
To drive your point home, and I'm not sure if it was here or another thread, but a guy was effectively defending "muh both side”-ing this because democrats hadn't passed universal health care. Lol it's insane that this is the discourse now.
Don't disagree with any of that.
The person I spoke with was so impressed because he (and the others in the deal) were specifically protecting themselves against any Trump shenanigans, but the way Trump changed the whole plan showed he was thinking many steps ahead of them.
But he turned out to be a one trick pony- his trick is screwing over everybody (perhaps in very clever ways) to boost his own power and wealth. The whole selfless part where he does it for the good of the nation, that never happened.
It depends by how much. If it's a thin majority, I imagine it will be like it is for Republicans this time around (hamstrung by the loud minorities within your party with an axe to grind). If it's a solid majority, I think we'd actually see some good changes.
Given what appears to be reflexive party line filibuster with no limits, they’re not doing much legislatively without either a supermajority or a dozen or so Republicans who decide to be constructive or to do things for their constituents.
Remember that historically there was usually at least some crossing the aisle. If you were the guy bringing over the vote to make or break, you have a lot of say over details
Sure, and they will once again scapegoat a couple individuals knowing most people don't pay enough attention to to know it's like 30 in the House and 8-10 in the Senate who are gladly blocking anything meaningful.
That’s something that needs to happen in a really obvious way. All those scapegoats need to be on full display - especially if they changed their previously stated views. Then maybe people will start understanding they need to actually show up to their fucking primaries if they want to make any effective progress in the future.
All these comments about “letting it all burn down” are just long-term reinforcing the idea that status quo centrists are the best candidates to run against fascists. Progress won’t happen until people vote in primaries.
C’mon, you knew that was going to happen when you posted it. That’s what always happens when you say anything remotely critical of the left on the internet (well at least lemmy and Reddit)
Idk why people can’t accept that it’s possible for both sides to suck ass, even if one is worse. The right being worse doesn’t make the left good, just better.
I’ll vote for Biden, but you can lick my ass if you want me to pretend to be happy as I do it.
C’mon, you knew that was going to happen when you posted it. That’s what always happens when you say anything remotely critical of the left on the internet (well at least lemmy and Reddit)
I wasn't being critical of the left. I was being critical of Democrats.
How about we give Biden credit for things he actually does, instead of more campaign promises he certainly won’t follow through on?
Day 1 agenda voting rights act, never happened. Locked in Trump corporate tax reductions. Has always wanted to plunder social security and abandon the program. Literally drools at the opportunity to “compromise with republicans” to achieve this feat. He’s a moron, the world’s worst negotiator, or the perfect lapdog of the ruling elite - take your pick, but he’s sure as shit not FDR 2.0.
This is who Biden is, so when you proudly vote against the bad orange man (a fascist wannabe tyrant to be sure), know who you’re voting for
Follow-up question, after 2020 what steps did you take to ensure or at least influence the available choices you would have in the coming 2024 election? Did you write your local comparative left-leaning parties, presumably including the Democrats, directly to voice your dissatisfaction and interest in more genuinely progressive or leftist party platform policies or policy makers? Or did you work with a better suited third party to increase their viability through community canvasing and outreach programs? Did you start talking with others in your community in the beginning stages of starting a bid for candidacy yourself to be the change you want to see directly? Not to be rude, I mean that genuinely, but did you do anything other than complain online, maybe in a few conversations in real life as well?
Because here's the thing, your criticism is absolutely both correct and valid. But we are now a year before the election, well into the primary season. If you haven't actually done anything to make the situation better, then you're kind of armchair quarterbacking critiques about the playbook of a game that is already in half-time. I'm sorry to be this blunt, but you missed the window. I truly hope you do get involved and care enough to make sure a terrible candidate like Biden isn't the only viable option in the future, but the time to start putting in the work to ensure a decent candidate appears on the 2028 ballot is today.
Make no mistake, it is absolutely terrible and miserable that campaign cycles are so long and that the political system is so practically impenetrable that we have to waste so much time on this shit and think long-game like this. Fucking miserable situation. But that's how it is. No amount of standing on principle or taking the easy way out by abstaining and blaming the consequences on others will change that. It sucks. I hate it too. But that's how it is. The reality is that Joe Biden is a shitty candidate but if you are even halfway decent you understand the alternative is objectively worse in almost every measurable way. Yes, voting for the lesser of two evils is terrible bullshit. But when you can't solve a problem outright, wisdom is prioritizing harm reduction. The choice is obvious.
But seriously, start fucking work today making sure we aren't right back here again in 2028.
edit: to be clear, I don't know you, and I understand that you may genuinely be involved already. I'll admit I am speaking in generalities to a broader audience than to you personally, and do apologize for any presumptions I have made about you in doing so.
Biden can sell it all he wants but the Legislature has to pass it
Locked in Trump corporate tax reductions.
Responsibility of the legislature
Has always wanted to plunder social security
We do need to deal with that election hasn’t in the room. We can’t control the deficit without controlling the biggest parts of the budget. More importantly, it’s sort of like climate change where the earlier you address it the easier it will be but at some point becomes too late to prevent serious repercussions
opportunity to “compromise with republicans”
He did campaign on trying to bring things back together, work together for the good of the country. I give the guy credit for trying more than I would have
Who said anyone was happy about that? Biden made the wrong choice. But to wring your hands and pretend you'll have a choice that isn't Trump or Biden next November is completely ignorant of how elections work in the US.
Yes. He did. Choices can lose you votes. Demanding them doesn't get them back. Pointing out the other option and being like "he's worse now shut up and be happy" doesn't do it either.
I prefer Biden to Trump. I'll vote for him. But I accept the reality that "not Trump and shut up" isn't good enough for some people. People whose votes we need. The options for the country are very likely gonna be Trump or Biden.
But as far as I see it, the options for the Democratic Party are as follows: Do better or lose.
I'm worried that they're not willing to change at all and would prefer to lose, even if that means Trump again.
Really because the ones I see not changing are the white cynics who are so high on their privilege that they seriously need it explained to them why "not trump" is fucking good enough no other explanation needed. Especially after Dobbs.
Fuckin' white self proclaimed revolutionaries talk a shitton about solidarity then don't waste a second to demand bribes for theirs soon as literally the bare minimum gets asked for to vote just so fucking Caligula Jackson doesn't get to strip everyone else's rights more.
Fuckers throw Letters from Birmingham around like gospel and do no self reflection about MLK being up to his limit with white folks who swear they're for civil rights then don't do any of the work to advance the cause.
Here, I'll quote the portion of my comment that you ignored because you were in such a screaming hurry to pontificate:
I prefer Biden to Trump. I’ll vote for him.
But yeah, don't let that put a damper on your self-righteousness. The party is owed everyone's votes no matter what genocides they fund, and even people who overtly say they're voting the way you want for the reasons you state are gonna get a earful of centrist karening.
Because god fucking forbid the party adapts to a political reality when we're at risk of falling to fascism.
He is also walking a tight rope attempting to defuse it. He got the border open with Egypt and humanitarian aid in. He got "humanitarian pauses" in place of a cease-fire because Bibby won't allow it.
You don't need to walk a tightrope on genocide. We give them the weapons they use to kill civilians and shield them from international consequences. We're not an uninvolved party trying to influence an equal, we have power.
That's an absurdly simplistic view that you can only afford to have because there are no consequences to you having it. Were you actually in charge and had briefings explaining the complex history and political situation then you'd very likely find yourself realising it's not as simple as you wish.
"We're acting like Republicans on this because the situation is just too complex for your puny mind to comprehend." - Centrists, about every fucking thing.
No…no we don't. The centrists are looking at the US and know we are fucked. We stopped pretending politics matter after Bush stole his first election and Obama couldn't come through with universal healthcare.
He's just getting the not Trump vote…and in 4 years when nothing changes, the next D will promise all these sweeping social things that somehow never manifest.
I'll eat a shit ton of new tastes for their inaction though.
It's because politics matter that Obama couldn't pull it off. Obamacare was what he could pull off with exactly 60 senators, before deaths dropped the number. If we wanted to have universal healthcare, we needed to expand our numbers in Congress.
Instead, apathetic voters led to a huge conservative victory, and made it impossible for universal healthcare to happen.
There's a very important lesson here. Not voting for a Democrat in the general election because you wanted them to go further with their policy doesn't get you those improvements. Instead, it gets Republicans to win and drive policy in the exact opposite direction.
And therein is the vicious cycle of voter apathy. The gridlock and status quo of the Obama years was because voters didn't show up in 2010. They didn't show up because they wanted more accomplishments, which required more senators. And voters who were too apathetic to vote in even 2008 caused that.
Ya. Ignore the genocide. And the strong history if being against gay marriage and abortion. And the doing nothing to address the codification of Roe v Wade. And the standing against cannabis legalization so we can keep jails full of peaceful poor people.
Why would anyone have reservations against voting for that guy.
You know, the same way Obama made Obama care happen.
… Obama made Obamacare happen based on an overwhelming election victory leading to a (tenuous and temporary) 60-vote majority which allowed him, over the course of months of negotiation to deliver an extremely watered down version of just his main campaign promise, the one, focused policy that he unambiguously emphasized more than any other policy.
I don't say this as condemnation of Obama. I say this as 'what the fuck do you think Biden is working with in comparison'? What's his one goal that he should be working towards? What's his supermajority? What did his election victory look like? Approval numbers?
So if Biden can't do shit because of congress, why will Trump be able to do anything?
Because the GOP wants to do fucking dogshit things. Did you miss the whole "2017-2021" period or fucking something? 'Obamacare' was within one vote of being repealed, and only survived because a cancer victim had a last-minute crisis of fucking conscience.
In a similar vein, I happen to enjoy a president fighting to push forward infrastructure and green energy funding despite a 0-vote majority and two wolves-in-sheeps-clothing included in that.
Which genocide is it that TransplatedSconie supports that would have been countered by "multiple deranged tweets at 2 AM from the president that cause nothing but chaos"?
You know, the same way Obama made Obama care happen.
This is a fantastic example. Obama started the term with 60 senators, and Obamacare was the most left thing they could pass. To get them better policy, they needed more senators so they could bypass the Manchins.
Except, voters were apathetic. So Democrats lost big time. It led to gridlock in Congress and solidified a status quo where you had to compromise with Republicans to get anything to happen.
And voters were apathetic about that. And Trump was elected.
The way we make Obamacare and better happen are crushing Republicans in the polls. Not bemoaning how things could be better. Because staying home has only made this country move further and further right.
Biden actually pardoned all federal convicts of marijuana possession. You can apply online at this link if you know anyone. He also began the process for re-classifying marijuana as Schedule III, though there's a lot of bureaucracy to get through so that's slow.
Don't worry, they'll just use the opportunity to say "Well, the Democrats won't be any better. I'll just not vote in the Trump Dynasty Monarchy Referendum"
I mean this honestly, and not attacking you in any way. But I'm incredibly intrigued as to how you believe The Biden administration is fascist as well. And again I'm coming from a place of just wanting to understand, not attacking you.
Bullshit. Objective reality exists, and Biden isn't a fascist. You are not entitled to make shit up.
More to the point, you are not entitled to spread fascist propaganda (your concern trolling is obviously designed to help Trump). You are anti-American scum and you are not welcome here, or anywhere.
Biden has adopted key plays from the fascist handbook
This is pure bullshit.
How about you ignoring Trump and co openly proclaiming that they want to do away with democracy and actually taking concrete steps to do so? Do you think that's a better alternative or do you just want to sit on your hands and say "oh well"
One guy wants to work on Civil rights, taxes, and social services.
The other guy wants to jail anyone who said mean things about him, suspend the constitution, and immediately apon being sworn in use the military to institute the insurrection act and declare martial law.
Centralists: BuT bOtH sIdEs!!!
As someone who was centrist: you can't be centrist when one person is motivated by spite to tear it down. You aren't a centrist anymore. You're an accessory.
Liberals are always the first to fall in line with fascists - the first regional governments of the Nazis in Germany was supported by libertarians and pro-economy-parties, a couple of years ago. 3 years ago the Neo-Liberal party in Thuringia accepted to govern as a minority-government when the only party supporting them was the far-right AfD with a leader that you can legally call a fascist and that is under surveillance by the Verfassungsschutz for being a danger to democracy.
The CDU (moderate-conservative party) in Germany also won't work with either the left party nor the AfD but their local politicians are already getting very close with the AfD.
If someone's claiming "both sides" in a political issue that's usually a sign that they won't oppose the fascists when they try to grab the power
At the end of the day, someone who sees both sides as the same is saying they don't care about LGBT people or abortion rights or ethnic minorities. It's impossible to care about them and still believe the two parties are close enough that it won't matter who wins.
Doesn't matter if they're a self described communist or crony capitalist. Scratch them and a fascist will bleed.
"Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds" is how the saying goes. In the US right now there is no real left political force, despite there being many individual leftists. The one thing the political system has done there above all is remove all impediments for capitalism to flourish. That goes back to the Populist movement and Jim Crow order, Eugene Debs, the Taft-Hartley act, removing any notion of class analysis from academia. Now you have the choice between how you want capitalism to be branded basically, is it Democrat happy everything is fine capitalism, or GOP get rich or die capitalism, but it's bootstrap policy all the way down.
Not in the US but I kind of apply this to the Democratic party itself. Obviously they aren't outright fash-branded like this GOP faction and strategically voting for them is like a forced thing at this point, but they are objectively a center-right party, and I believe the economic policies they promote are in effect an accessory to the GOP's. What's more is Democrat PACs actually give money to run ads on behalf of the most fash GOP primary candidates as part of a strategy to get them easier opponents, and it's worked before, but it also directly enables that faction to gain more ground over multiple election cycles. Like Hillary wanted to run against Trump, they helped him get the nomination, how funny would that be if the GOP had Trump as a candidate, they'd be a laughingstock!
I feel like this whole thing is a downward spiral with two factions that aren't really even offering economic alternatives at this point because the neoliberal market based "freedom" is basically consented too. It's like do you want the happy Democrat branding of this or the fashy GOP branding while it all spirals out of control.
“Literally can’t tell them apart.”
also everyone on Hexbear.net
I generally give Republicans more benefit of the doubt than most. I consider myself a liberal libertarian with an open mind to all things. I think there were plenty of valid reasons to vote for Trump the first time around, reasons that much of the country chose to ignore because it was easier than addressing them.
If the GOP nominates Trump again, they deserve to lose as hardcore as possible. I didn't scream and cry when he was elected because I was willing to give him a chance and an open mind. But I think his first term said everything that needed to be said about his suitability as a leader. He talked a big talk of draining the swamp, but then filled his cabinet with alligators and no swamps were drained. If anything, swamps were created as he filled key positions with corrupt people who were loyal to him but had little experience or skill for the job at hand.
Love his policies or hate them, that's just corrupt bad government. And while I don't always agree with Biden's policies, much like Obama, he at least executes the duties of his office in a relatively competent manner.
Same thing if DeSantis gets the nomination. You can't run a platform of jobs creation when you pick a hissy fit with your state's largest employer because they dare voice some mild opposition to a policy of yours (especially when said opposition is essential for said company to maintain credibility on the national level). That speaks volumes about the kind of person, and the kind of leader, that you are. I would rather have someone who's policies I sometimes disagree with, then a childishly vindictive psychophant sitting in the big chair.
Sadly, this all is the very predictable result of the Karl Rove strategy- whip up social conservatives and evangelicals to drum up votes. The result is those groups now have significant power within the GOP, even though their platform of intolerant policies is unappealing to the broader nation to the point of making them unelectable in the eyes of many.
If you knew anything about Trump you would not have thought this.
Nuance is a thing.
I said there were plenty of valid reasons to vote for Trump. For example, if you wanted American manufacturing, the idea of a tariff on Chinese goods was appealing. If you favor border security he was your guy. If you favor gun rights Hillary sure as fuck wasn't for you. Etc etc.
And overall- Hillary was a very 'middle of the road status quo' candidate and the nation wanted real reform. Trump represented change- perhaps not good change, but change.
Not arguing the merits of any of those points. Just saying if you want those things, his platform was the more appealing one.
Following him would reveal plenty of good reasons NOT to vote for him also. Dishonesty, misogyny/sexual harassment, tax evasion, borderline racism, and a lot of his rhetoric felt a little too close to Hitler's for my taste.
Personally I didn't vote for him- I voted 3rd party (in my solid blue state of CT, my vote doesn't matter either way). But I could understand why people did, and I had hopes- I hoped that either when he won the primary or the general the 'yuuuge!' personality would go away and the intelligence a lot of people claim he has would emerge, and we'd be left with, if not a true statesman, someone approaching a mature adult who would get to work solving the nation's challenges.
As it stands, what we got was pretty close to what his critics had claimed would happen- a Presidency full of scandals and corruption, with his own loyalists placed in key positions they were wholly unqualified for. And from what I've read, it was widely known in foreign intelligence circles that if you wanted him on your side, just book a few million bucks worth of boondoggles at mar-a-lago and kiss his ass a few times and he'd be your buddy. Obviously not what we need in a President.
But that's all my point. Going into it, there were valid reasons for wanting him. Now, there may still be desirable items on his agenda, but he's proven himself ineffective at implementing any of those items. So now, this time round, I'd say if you vote for him (especially in the primary) you're a moron because you're putting forward someone Biden's almost certainly gonna crush, who was disappointing the first time around and arguably treasonous.
What I mean is Trump is a known liar and conman. Anyone who knew anything about Trump knew he was lying out of his ass, and wouldn't do anything he promised.
Honestly part of the reason I gave him benefit of doubt is a few conversations I had with someone who worked extensively on a real estate project with Trump They said Trump did some slightly underhanded shit that screwed some people over, but it was obvious he had a very sharp mind and was thinking far ahead of anyone else at the table; that the 'yuuge' personality was a smokescreen to look stupid so people didn't realize how truly sharp he was. The person I spoke with lost some opportunities as a result of Trump's underhanded operations, but ended up with strong respect for the guy as a businessman and a leader. The person felt that if Trump used his capabilities on behalf of the nation, we'd all benefit.
I was hoping we'd see in the White House some glimmer of what the person I spoke with saw in the real estate deal. Unfortunately we did not. Or if we did, it was only in service of Trump, not in service of the nation.
And while Trump may be a known liar and a conman, when the opponent is quoted as saying you have to have a public and a private position on issues (in other words, lie and tell people what they want to hear) it's hard to worry too much.
Had Biden been the nominee he'd almost certainly have beaten Trump. Or Bernie, he'd have done well.
So the guy gets fucked over by Trump, and thinks that's a good quality? He's an idiot.
Step past your hatred of the guy and look for some nuance my friend.
The person I spoke with didn't like Trump, but admired Trump's sharp mind and strategic brain that could out-think a lot of very smart people. Their belief was that Trump is sharp as a tack but just pretends to be an idiot so people underestimate him.
Being the smartest guy in the room, being able to come to a negotiation and sweep the board when nobody sees it coming is never a bad quality for a President. THAT is what they respected-- the ability to do that to a bunch of very smart people.
That's called being a narcissistic conman, and is not a sign of intelligence, only a sign of lack of empathy and morals.
The fact he got taken in makes him an idiot.
So the guy sees Trump do some underhanded stuff to screw people over and thought “that’s what I want to lead my country”
Trumps genius is in his ability to sell himself. The guy got bamboozled by a known fraud, conman, and narcissist.
It's not like he came out of nowhere, his bombastic dishonesty was no secret, and he made it crystal clear during the campaign that he had nothing to do with honesty and truth.
While I hoped he would change his tune when he became president, and held out hope there, it should have come to zero surprise that he is who has always been and giving him the "benefit of the doubt" was being extremely generous, if not outright naive.
Anyone giving Trump any sort of benefit of the doubt even in 2016 could only generously be described as extremely ignorant. Trump had even at the time an extremely proven track record, and all of us proclaiming doom and gloom if he got elected were proven right over and over. The only surprise from any of this is that he didn't start a war and instead just managed to create enough instability to lead us where we are now with Israel/Palestine and especially Russia/Ukraine. Like, there was a lot of us telling everyone exactly what was going to happen in 2016, whether that was Roe, the racist immigration shit, the threat of a pandemic, the growing wealth inequality, his ability to handle something like Hurricane Maria, etc. We knew he was a rapist then. We knew he was a conman then. He had already mocked the disabled, military families, called hispanics murderers, rapists and drug dealers. He already and still maintained the Central Park Five, who'd long been exonerated, should have been put to death. Fuck's sake the only reason he started running basically was because he got a lot of attention for the birther bullshit which tbh wasn't even a dog whistle and he might have just as well had a klan hood on during that whole thing.
I'm not sure if it's more an indictment of the media, the education system, or just Republicans working for generations to do exactly what they have that literally anyone could give him the benefit of the doubt.
Even in this very thread, we're doing their work for them. Biden's been a fairly successful president by most normal metrics, and the only thing the media (and half of this thread) want to talk about is that he's old. Meanwhile, Trump is actually, routinely now showing that he's losing his faculties and he's a spry 3 years younger with the diet of a frat party at 2am and the exercise regimen of a russet potato, but yes, let's really dissect if Biden's putting out an international fire fast enough as if the alternative in Trump wouldn't be literally to throw matches and gas at the problem.
To drive your point home, and I'm not sure if it was here or another thread, but a guy was effectively defending "muh both side”-ing this because democrats hadn't passed universal health care. Lol it's insane that this is the discourse now.
Don't disagree with any of that.
The person I spoke with was so impressed because he (and the others in the deal) were specifically protecting themselves against any Trump shenanigans, but the way Trump changed the whole plan showed he was thinking many steps ahead of them.
But he turned out to be a one trick pony- his trick is screwing over everybody (perhaps in very clever ways) to boost his own power and wealth. The whole selfless part where he does it for the good of the nation, that never happened.
Well, he says he does.
Better than the other guy who wants to "root out the leftist vermin."
I fully expect the Democrats to have both houses for a year and accomplish nothing.
It depends by how much. If it's a thin majority, I imagine it will be like it is for Republicans this time around (hamstrung by the loud minorities within your party with an axe to grind). If it's a solid majority, I think we'd actually see some good changes.
Given what appears to be reflexive party line filibuster with no limits, they’re not doing much legislatively without either a supermajority or a dozen or so Republicans who decide to be constructive or to do things for their constituents.
Remember that historically there was usually at least some crossing the aisle. If you were the guy bringing over the vote to make or break, you have a lot of say over details
Sure, and they will once again scapegoat a couple individuals knowing most people don't pay enough attention to to know it's like 30 in the House and 8-10 in the Senate who are gladly blocking anything meaningful.
Centrists always find enough turncoats to vote with Republicans.
That’s something that needs to happen in a really obvious way. All those scapegoats need to be on full display - especially if they changed their previously stated views. Then maybe people will start understanding they need to actually show up to their fucking primaries if they want to make any effective progress in the future.
All these comments about “letting it all burn down” are just long-term reinforcing the idea that status quo centrists are the best candidates to run against fascists. Progress won’t happen until people vote in primaries.
I prefer to take a more skeptical view, rather than a cynical one
deleted by creator
No u
I love how you didn't even pretend that his stated views are sincere, and just dropped to "not trump."
C’mon, you knew that was going to happen when you posted it. That’s what always happens when you say anything remotely critical of the left on the internet (well at least lemmy and Reddit)
Idk why people can’t accept that it’s possible for both sides to suck ass, even if one is worse. The right being worse doesn’t make the left good, just better.
I’ll vote for Biden, but you can lick my ass if you want me to pretend to be happy as I do it.
I wasn't being critical of the left. I was being critical of Democrats.
How about we give Biden credit for things he actually does, instead of more campaign promises he certainly won’t follow through on?
Day 1 agenda voting rights act, never happened. Locked in Trump corporate tax reductions. Has always wanted to plunder social security and abandon the program. Literally drools at the opportunity to “compromise with republicans” to achieve this feat. He’s a moron, the world’s worst negotiator, or the perfect lapdog of the ruling elite - take your pick, but he’s sure as shit not FDR 2.0.
This is who Biden is, so when you proudly vote against the bad orange man (a fascist wannabe tyrant to be sure), know who you’re voting for
You make a great point.
Follow-up question, after 2020 what steps did you take to ensure or at least influence the available choices you would have in the coming 2024 election? Did you write your local comparative left-leaning parties, presumably including the Democrats, directly to voice your dissatisfaction and interest in more genuinely progressive or leftist party platform policies or policy makers? Or did you work with a better suited third party to increase their viability through community canvasing and outreach programs? Did you start talking with others in your community in the beginning stages of starting a bid for candidacy yourself to be the change you want to see directly? Not to be rude, I mean that genuinely, but did you do anything other than complain online, maybe in a few conversations in real life as well?
Because here's the thing, your criticism is absolutely both correct and valid. But we are now a year before the election, well into the primary season. If you haven't actually done anything to make the situation better, then you're kind of armchair quarterbacking critiques about the playbook of a game that is already in half-time. I'm sorry to be this blunt, but you missed the window. I truly hope you do get involved and care enough to make sure a terrible candidate like Biden isn't the only viable option in the future, but the time to start putting in the work to ensure a decent candidate appears on the 2028 ballot is today.
Make no mistake, it is absolutely terrible and miserable that campaign cycles are so long and that the political system is so practically impenetrable that we have to waste so much time on this shit and think long-game like this. Fucking miserable situation. But that's how it is. No amount of standing on principle or taking the easy way out by abstaining and blaming the consequences on others will change that. It sucks. I hate it too. But that's how it is. The reality is that Joe Biden is a shitty candidate but if you are even halfway decent you understand the alternative is objectively worse in almost every measurable way. Yes, voting for the lesser of two evils is terrible bullshit. But when you can't solve a problem outright, wisdom is prioritizing harm reduction. The choice is obvious.
But seriously, start fucking work today making sure we aren't right back here again in 2028.
edit: to be clear, I don't know you, and I understand that you may genuinely be involved already. I'll admit I am speaking in generalities to a broader audience than to you personally, and do apologize for any presumptions I have made about you in doing so.
Biden can sell it all he wants but the Legislature has to pass it
Responsibility of the legislature
We do need to deal with that election hasn’t in the room. We can’t control the deficit without controlling the biggest parts of the budget. More importantly, it’s sort of like climate change where the earlier you address it the easier it will be but at some point becomes too late to prevent serious repercussions
He did campaign on trying to bring things back together, work together for the good of the country. I give the guy credit for trying more than I would have
You forgot people who are clutching their pearls over Biden's support of Israel and calling him a fascist because of it.
Some people aren't as happy with genocide as you think they should be.
Who said anyone was happy about that? Biden made the wrong choice. But to wring your hands and pretend you'll have a choice that isn't Trump or Biden next November is completely ignorant of how elections work in the US.
It may not be Trump or Biden, but it will certainly be regressive shitheel or Biden. This is not a pro-Biden statement, just reality.
Yes. He did. Choices can lose you votes. Demanding them doesn't get them back. Pointing out the other option and being like "he's worse now shut up and be happy" doesn't do it either.
I prefer Biden to Trump. I'll vote for him. But I accept the reality that "not Trump and shut up" isn't good enough for some people. People whose votes we need. The options for the country are very likely gonna be Trump or Biden.
But as far as I see it, the options for the Democratic Party are as follows: Do better or lose.
I'm worried that they're not willing to change at all and would prefer to lose, even if that means Trump again.
Really because the ones I see not changing are the white cynics who are so high on their privilege that they seriously need it explained to them why "not trump" is fucking good enough no other explanation needed. Especially after Dobbs.
Fuckin' white self proclaimed revolutionaries talk a shitton about solidarity then don't waste a second to demand bribes for theirs soon as literally the bare minimum gets asked for to vote just so fucking Caligula Jackson doesn't get to strip everyone else's rights more.
Fuckers throw Letters from Birmingham around like gospel and do no self reflection about MLK being up to his limit with white folks who swear they're for civil rights then don't do any of the work to advance the cause.
Here, I'll quote the portion of my comment that you ignored because you were in such a screaming hurry to pontificate:
But yeah, don't let that put a damper on your self-righteousness. The party is owed everyone's votes no matter what genocides they fund, and even people who overtly say they're voting the way you want for the reasons you state are gonna get a earful of centrist karening.
Because god fucking forbid the party adapts to a political reality when we're at risk of falling to fascism.
He is also walking a tight rope attempting to defuse it. He got the border open with Egypt and humanitarian aid in. He got "humanitarian pauses" in place of a cease-fire because Bibby won't allow it.
You don't need to walk a tightrope on genocide. We give them the weapons they use to kill civilians and shield them from international consequences. We're not an uninvolved party trying to influence an equal, we have power.
That's an absurdly simplistic view that you can only afford to have because there are no consequences to you having it. Were you actually in charge and had briefings explaining the complex history and political situation then you'd very likely find yourself realising it's not as simple as you wish.
"We're acting like Republicans on this because the situation is just too complex for your puny mind to comprehend." - Centrists, about every fucking thing.
Both want to enthusiastically support and fund genocides.
Also the "centrists" of American politics are who mostly support Biden.
No…no we don't. The centrists are looking at the US and know we are fucked. We stopped pretending politics matter after Bush stole his first election and Obama couldn't come through with universal healthcare.
Then who does? Conservatives don't. Hardly anyone left of center does…
He's just getting the not Trump vote…and in 4 years when nothing changes, the next D will promise all these sweeping social things that somehow never manifest.
I'll eat a shit ton of new tastes for their inaction though.
It's because politics matter that Obama couldn't pull it off. Obamacare was what he could pull off with exactly 60 senators, before deaths dropped the number. If we wanted to have universal healthcare, we needed to expand our numbers in Congress.
Instead, apathetic voters led to a huge conservative victory, and made it impossible for universal healthcare to happen.
There's a very important lesson here. Not voting for a Democrat in the general election because you wanted them to go further with their policy doesn't get you those improvements. Instead, it gets Republicans to win and drive policy in the exact opposite direction.
And therein is the vicious cycle of voter apathy. The gridlock and status quo of the Obama years was because voters didn't show up in 2010. They didn't show up because they wanted more accomplishments, which required more senators. And voters who were too apathetic to vote in even 2008 caused that.
And your excuses for Biden are?
50/51 Democrat senators with 2 conservatives?
Ya. Ignore the genocide. And the strong history if being against gay marriage and abortion. And the doing nothing to address the codification of Roe v Wade. And the standing against cannabis legalization so we can keep jails full of peaceful poor people.
Why would anyone have reservations against voting for that guy.
What exactly do you think the president can do about that?
Wave his magic wand, clearly.
He is the leader of the nation.
I dont know, lead your party, address the nation, inspire the people.
You know, the same way Obama made Obama care happen.
Instead Biden hid under a rock for 3 years before comin' out blazing to keep a genocide going and campaign for reelection.
… Obama made Obamacare happen based on an overwhelming election victory leading to a (tenuous and temporary) 60-vote majority which allowed him, over the course of months of negotiation to deliver an extremely watered down version of just his main campaign promise, the one, focused policy that he unambiguously emphasized more than any other policy.
I don't say this as condemnation of Obama. I say this as 'what the fuck do you think Biden is working with in comparison'? What's his one goal that he should be working towards? What's his supermajority? What did his election victory look like? Approval numbers?
Okay.
So if Biden can't do shit because of congress, why will Trump be able to do anything?
We have troves of proof that Red congresspeople are only able to cannibalize themselves and smear shit on the walls of the Capitol.
If a US president can't achieve anything because of congressional incompetence, why is Trump even a threat?
Jesus idjit. Use your brain for once in your life.
Because Biden isn't trying to implement Project 2025 to make the executive branch into a dictatorship.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
Because the GOP wants to do fucking dogshit things. Did you miss the whole "2017-2021" period or fucking something? 'Obamacare' was within one vote of being repealed, and only survived because a cancer victim had a last-minute crisis of fucking conscience.
Because they don't plan on using congress to do anything. They plan on having control of the military
I happen to enjoy not seeing multiple deranged tweets at 2 am from the president that cause nothing but chaos.
In a similar vein, I happen to enjoy a president fighting to push forward infrastructure and green energy funding despite a 0-vote majority and two wolves-in-sheeps-clothing included in that.
Fuck, I don't need to be reminded of that trauma…I enjoy the fact that he has a contractual obligation to solely use his dumb Twitter clone
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
Which genocide is it that TransplatedSconie supports that would have been countered by "multiple deranged tweets at 2 AM from the president that cause nothing but chaos"?
Could've stopped there
This is a fantastic example. Obama started the term with 60 senators, and Obamacare was the most left thing they could pass. To get them better policy, they needed more senators so they could bypass the Manchins.
Except, voters were apathetic. So Democrats lost big time. It led to gridlock in Congress and solidified a status quo where you had to compromise with Republicans to get anything to happen.
And voters were apathetic about that. And Trump was elected.
The way we make Obamacare and better happen are crushing Republicans in the polls. Not bemoaning how things could be better. Because staying home has only made this country move further and further right.
And following this "strong history", I'm sure he appointed a pro-life Justice to the Supreme Court and vetoed the Respect for Marriage Act.
Oh wait, no he didn't.
Please identify the pro-choice majority in Congress that you're apparently confident existed at some point since January 2021. I'll wait.
https://www.justice.gov/pardon/presidential-proclamation-marijuana-possession
Biden actually pardoned all federal convicts of marijuana possession. You can apply online at this link if you know anyone. He also began the process for re-classifying marijuana as Schedule III, though there's a lot of bureaucracy to get through so that's slow.
Because Trump will definitely not support Israel and be very supporting of LGBT+ people, abortion and drug legalization.
All of that definitely sounds like Trump. Who is also not a Nazi.
You think voting for Trump or not voting will help those issues?
I think not voting for fascists takes the wind out of fascist sails. Yes.
You think actual fascists give a shit about your vote?
Actual fascists, historically, work to strongly depress voter turnout, because the illegitimization of democracy is a core component of the ideology.
In a two-party, winner-take-all system, not voting will just help Trump. Trump will be detrimental to your cause compared to Biden.
There's no cause here. Only dissatisfaction spun into a sense of disaffected superiority.
Yeah, nothing like taking your dissatisfaction to the next level with a second Trump presidency.
Don't worry, they'll just use the opportunity to say "Well, the Democrats won't be any better. I'll just not vote in the Trump Dynasty Monarchy Referendum"
Because the alternative is Fascism.
"Second worst to fascists" isn't the win Democrats seem to think it is.
He is fascist too.
Neo-progressives are fascist too.
America has once again reached the end of its "lesser evil" rope, and its just 2 fascist mobs screaming at each-other.
Words have meaning. Please define "fascist" and demonstrate how Biden is one.
I mean this honestly, and not attacking you in any way. But I'm incredibly intrigued as to how you believe The Biden administration is fascist as well. And again I'm coming from a place of just wanting to understand, not attacking you.
Fascism is when I don't like foreign policy, and the more foreign policy I don't like, the fascist-r it is.
You need to quit fucking lying.
I'm dead ass speaking truth.
You need to break your conditioning.
Bullshit. Objective reality exists, and Biden isn't a fascist. You are not entitled to make shit up.
More to the point, you are not entitled to spread fascist propaganda (your concern trolling is obviously designed to help Trump). You are anti-American scum and you are not welcome here, or anywhere.
Biden has adopted key plays from the fascist handbook and you are not allowed to ignore that.
How many times do I need to clarify?
My vote goes to neither, and I won't allow you to take my truth from me to say I support someone I don't.
The 2 party system is critically failing all of us, and I am done supporting it. EITHER SIDE.
I put my stat into the "fuck man, I'm disenfranchised" bucket.
Stop being like a fascist and misrepresenting my truth in the light of your owner.
This is pure bullshit.
How about you ignoring Trump and co openly proclaiming that they want to do away with democracy and actually taking concrete steps to do so? Do you think that's a better alternative or do you just want to sit on your hands and say "oh well"
If you don't vote against fascism, you're a motherfucking fascist. End of.
When Trump's jackbooted thugs drag you off to the camps, I hope you finally realize what a dipshit you've been before the end.
I can't help but notice you didn't actually list any.