After months of getting close, the relationship between Trump and his so-called ‘first buddy’ has become ‘fraught,’ according to a New York Times reporter
I have heard the logic behind these kinds of jokes being bad but I just don’t agree. Sometimes a joke is throwaway and well intended. If it hurts 1% of people’s feelings, depending on what it is, that is usually not a concern for me.
If you stop telling any jokes because you’re worried about polite criticism, I don’t think you really are interested in making people laugh, you know?
You seem to think I’m worried about my own jokes, which I’m not. This quote seems like bad faith since I went to great lengths to clarify that I’m talking about the larger effects on society of shaming people for every potentially offensive joke.
I don’t really like the term virtue signalling because of how it’s typically used but this comment reeks of it
I think you’re continuing to misinterpret me here, I clarified above that I’m not speaking about you directly, but the general “you”. Here it is again edited for clarity:
And, like I’ve been saying, I’m just here to inform. No one has to engage with this if they don’t want to. If one interprets it as chilling, then I think that’s a relationship with the joke and the context that one would need to work through individually. It’s okay to have a joke fall flat! Or have certain groups not find it very funny. If one stops telling any jokes because one is worried about polite criticism, I don’t think one really is interested in making people laugh, you know?
Yeah that edit made it slightly better, but your replies still neglect to address my point. Jokes will offend people inevitably, but they still are important to human mental health. Quite important. You’re presenting this case as “oh it’s just information and you’re free to ignore it” but not only do others veer far away from that tone (you gave an example of two people ready to string up a stranger when they probably are wrong about what he even meant by his word choice), but you can even see in OPs response to you. Deference, shame, done. They did not want to upset anyone and it showed in that comment. They felt some amount of shame for something that was 99.9% harmless and certainly not badly intended. I don’t agree either with the increasingly popular sentiment “intentions don’t matter if someone gets hurt”. They aren’t a blank check but they absolutely have to matter. Otherwise the conversation is unidirectional: “I am right and good, you are wrong and bad”.
This kind of shaming is not rare these days, and it matters. Basically every comedian would agree to some extent. Only the shitty ones have the take away of “you can’t say anything anymore” because that’s not true. But it’s slowly getting more true though. I don’t expect comedy to die soon, but it’s getting deader.
I think more folks need to understand that “hey I didn’t like that joke” or “hey I know you didn’t mean it that way but that hurt me” as inherently being shamed by someone, or even shameful at all. People are messy! We’re going to step on each other’s toes even when we’re doing our best. I think OP did an absolutely perfect job of saying, oh, you’re correct, that wasn’t my intention, let me make sure that’s clear to everyone right away. And then no one has to make any fuss about it from there. At the end of the day, your feelings about being gently corrected are yours to deal with, not the responsibility of the person or people correcting you.
And to be clear, I know this is difficult! It’s emotional labor you have to do. If you want to reframe your feeling of shame as something else (I like gratitude personally, like my friend has told me I have something in my teeth and I should fix that before I talk more), that can be useful.
Ultimately, trans people and other minorities don’t owe you gentleness when they’re hurt. It helps to be nice and low expectations like I have tried to be here, but that is a privileged position. It isn’t easy to hear someone lash out at you in pain and say “thank you for sharing this with me, I will reflect on it” but I’m telling you, it is worth it. Listening to other people is so important to protect minorities in any majority-ruled democracy.
And like I said, no one has to do this. But this is the process by which you can take casual allies of circumstance and make them trusted friends. And I think we all need more trusted friends nowadays.
To be clear, they kinda withdrew from the situation because you scared them. They may make less jokes in the future due to overthinking minutia, which is literally my only concern. We cannot know, but we definitely know society overall gets impacted by shame.
Ultimately, trans people and other minorities don’t owe you gentleness when they’re hurt.
And no one owes anyone else kindness when they’re being treated unfairly. I also don’t owe any strangers proof that I self reflect if they insist on hinting that I don’t.
You still didn’t touch my actual point and you’re just lecturing me on “reflecting”.
ETA: found some others pushing back on you from slightly different angles. You seem to reject all their notions too. Maybe you yourself would stand to benefit from some self reflection.
I have heard the logic behind these kinds of jokes being bad but I just don’t agree. Sometimes a joke is throwaway and well intended. If it hurts 1% of people’s feelings, depending on what it is, that is usually not a concern for me.
You seem to think I’m worried about my own jokes, which I’m not. This quote seems like bad faith since I went to great lengths to clarify that I’m talking about the larger effects on society of shaming people for every potentially offensive joke.
I don’t really like the term virtue signalling because of how it’s typically used but this comment reeks of it
I think you’re continuing to misinterpret me here, I clarified above that I’m not speaking about you directly, but the general “you”. Here it is again edited for clarity:
Yeah that edit made it slightly better, but your replies still neglect to address my point. Jokes will offend people inevitably, but they still are important to human mental health. Quite important. You’re presenting this case as “oh it’s just information and you’re free to ignore it” but not only do others veer far away from that tone (you gave an example of two people ready to string up a stranger when they probably are wrong about what he even meant by his word choice), but you can even see in OPs response to you. Deference, shame, done. They did not want to upset anyone and it showed in that comment. They felt some amount of shame for something that was 99.9% harmless and certainly not badly intended. I don’t agree either with the increasingly popular sentiment “intentions don’t matter if someone gets hurt”. They aren’t a blank check but they absolutely have to matter. Otherwise the conversation is unidirectional: “I am right and good, you are wrong and bad”.
This kind of shaming is not rare these days, and it matters. Basically every comedian would agree to some extent. Only the shitty ones have the take away of “you can’t say anything anymore” because that’s not true. But it’s slowly getting more true though. I don’t expect comedy to die soon, but it’s getting deader.
I think more folks need to understand that “hey I didn’t like that joke” or “hey I know you didn’t mean it that way but that hurt me” as inherently being shamed by someone, or even shameful at all. People are messy! We’re going to step on each other’s toes even when we’re doing our best. I think OP did an absolutely perfect job of saying, oh, you’re correct, that wasn’t my intention, let me make sure that’s clear to everyone right away. And then no one has to make any fuss about it from there. At the end of the day, your feelings about being gently corrected are yours to deal with, not the responsibility of the person or people correcting you.
And to be clear, I know this is difficult! It’s emotional labor you have to do. If you want to reframe your feeling of shame as something else (I like gratitude personally, like my friend has told me I have something in my teeth and I should fix that before I talk more), that can be useful.
Ultimately, trans people and other minorities don’t owe you gentleness when they’re hurt. It helps to be nice and low expectations like I have tried to be here, but that is a privileged position. It isn’t easy to hear someone lash out at you in pain and say “thank you for sharing this with me, I will reflect on it” but I’m telling you, it is worth it. Listening to other people is so important to protect minorities in any majority-ruled democracy.
And like I said, no one has to do this. But this is the process by which you can take casual allies of circumstance and make them trusted friends. And I think we all need more trusted friends nowadays.
To be clear, they kinda withdrew from the situation because you scared them. They may make less jokes in the future due to overthinking minutia, which is literally my only concern. We cannot know, but we definitely know society overall gets impacted by shame.
And no one owes anyone else kindness when they’re being treated unfairly. I also don’t owe any strangers proof that I self reflect if they insist on hinting that I don’t.
You still didn’t touch my actual point and you’re just lecturing me on “reflecting”.
ETA: found some others pushing back on you from slightly different angles. You seem to reject all their notions too. Maybe you yourself would stand to benefit from some self reflection.