Also, you not being comfortable, or even able, to think outside of the existing (and completely artificial) constructs we're forced to live under, doesn't mean other options don't exist, only that you haven't bothered looking for them.
His sources are pretty mid, but he's right. A lot of people who like to trash Trump for yelling about election fraud also seem to forget democrats have done the same thing in the past.
Also, the whole "both sides are the same is bullshit" tagline is very Reddit. Doesn't work as well here, where conservatives aren't systematically banned for not agreeing with the hivemind.
There is no room for this kind of false equivocation in any honest conversation. You're parroting sheer --and dangerous– propaganda. Take that back to Russia or wherever pays you 10 cents to post it.
I think the root of this was the SCOTUS stepping into the 00 election to stop the Florida recounting. I definitely heard a lot of stolen election rhetoric from liberals and leftists during shrubs first term - and there's some gravity to the claim given the events. It's not the same in Trump's case though, but the details aren't what matters in a game with lowest common denominator voters - only rhetoric matters. Rhetoric is what got 1/6 to happen, and it's what's where the average Republican to support Trump no matter what.
If we're talking about 2000, when Supreme Court justices appointed by Bush's father stepped in and prevented recounts from taking place (which later showed that Bush would have lost) and handed the presidency to Bush; and comparing that to 2021, when the president launched a mob of armed traitors and attacked the capitol, while GOP lawmakers aided them; and saying there's something similar between them, then all hope for meaningful truth is lost.
"Both sides have accused the other of stealing the election!" is only true insofar as one side has actually stolen an election, after which that fact was grumbled about but then accepted peacefully, and then that same side 20 years later launched a failed coup d'état and whined afterwards about the election being stolen. So it's a fact, but presenting it as some sort of equivalence is the peak of dishonesty.
(I know that's not what you're doing, you're just explaining the conversation. But that is what the grandparent post was doing, thus my complaint.)
I mean, yeah. I gave you a primary source of a plethora of prominent democrats, including the current president and vice president, claiming election fraud when Trump was first elected.
I'm guessing your overly abundant use of question marks and italics, as well as lack of any sort of substantive retort other than claiming propaganda, is related to your cognitive dissonance. I'm sorry this doesn't fit your world view.
That's not what a "primary source" is. Links to websites are not primary sources. This is pretty basic stuff.
No, my abundant use of question marks and italics was to emphasize just how stupid and dishonest what you wrote was. You're a dishonest propagandist and you are making the world a worse place. Be better than that.
Those video clips are talking about how the electoral college had fucked over the majority of voters 2 out of the last 3 times that Republicans have won the presidency.
And when the voter fraud teams weren’t looking for fraud, they almost exclusively found Republicans who were cheating because they were convinced everyone else was too.
That’s why all the assholes who were running those commissions quietly ended then so fast in 2020.
Except Horseshoe Theory is hot garbage. "Both Sides" is what lazy people come up with. That's like saying hot and cold are practically the same, because they are both temperatures.
And remember when they kept claiming election fraud long after they lost, and brought 60+ lawsuits, and called Secretaries of State to "find me X votes,", and tried to get the vice president to decertify peoples votes, and tried to send fake Electors to vote for them, and planned to use the Insurrection Act to stay in power?
But please, go off about how they're fundamentally the same.
planned to use the Insurrection Act to stay in power
Which they didn’t, lmfao.
So yeah, as to the issue of complaining about election fraud, they are fundamentally the same. Got any more areas that you want me to remind you of the democratic equivalent for, or would you prefer to actually watch the primary source that you pretty blatantly disregarded before posting all that?
No. And I'll be the first to say they made some idiotic moves. But that's not the same as trying to send fake certificates and a fake slate of Electors, which has landed some of those electors in legal jeopardy. Both bad, magnitude very different.
planned to use the Insurrection Act to stay in power
Which they didn’t, lmfao.
Oh, soooo much better. It's a good thing Project 2025 doesn't exist… Also, name me a Democrat that ever even floated such an idea.
So yeah, fundamentally the same. No differences at all. Practically the same party. /S
name me a Democrat that ever even floated such an idea
CHAZ was an actual insurrection in Portland undertaken by left-wing groups. Unless you’re talking about elected democrats, in which case feel free to name an elected Republican that was ever proven to have done that.
Got any substantive points, or are you going to just keep peddling misinformation?
Even if that were the case, which it's clearly not, wouldn't it be better to move slowly towards full-on fascism than speed run it?
What is with all the both-sidesing and accelerationism on here in the last few weeks? Some of you all are either too young or too privileged to remember what living under Trump was really like, and he's been abundantly clear that his next term will be far worse.
You won't find very many enthusiastic Biden supporters, but I'd much rather have four more years of this than four-plus more years of Trump with a grudge and nothing left to lose.
What is with all the both-sidesing and accelerationism on here in the last few weeks?
Lotta Libertarian "Centrists" who think they're smart and that they have a choice. They think they will be able to die on the single-issue-hill of Biden's policy stance on Israel and still retain the ability to vote in five years.
Fortunately, as evidenced by most of the comments here, they're still squarely in the minority, and I'll never stop pointing out how bad their arguments are.
yes. she would not say what she thought about abortion in her confirmation hearings. but we know he did confirm justices who have ruled to vacate roe v wade.
What evidence do you have that he was in favor of outlawing abortion? Because “he’s a Catholic” is not it. There are whole Catholic organizations that want legal abortion.
As if the democrats don't lead to the same end result, only slower and more "politely"…
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/08/22/american-democracy-was-never-designed-to-be-democratic-eric-holder-our-unfinished-march-nick-seabrook-one-person-one-vote-jacob-grumbach-laboratories-against-democracy
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/10/14/liberalism-and-fascism-partners-in-crime/
https://truthout.org/articles/fascism-is-possible-not-in-spite-of-liberal-capitalism-but-because-of-it/
https://nyanarchist.wordpress.com/2019/01/23/scratch-a-liberal-a-fascist-bleeds-how-the-so-called-middle-class-has-enabled-oppression-for-centuries/
Also, you not being comfortable, or even able, to think outside of the existing (and completely artificial) constructs we're forced to live under, doesn't mean other options don't exist, only that you haven't bothered looking for them.
Go back to your troll cave with this "both sides are the same" bullshit.
His sources are pretty mid, but he's right. A lot of people who like to trash Trump for yelling about election fraud also seem to forget democrats have done the same thing in the past.
Also, the whole "both sides are the same is bullshit" tagline is very Reddit. Doesn't work as well here, where conservatives aren't systematically banned for not agreeing with the hivemind.
Trump and Democrats have done the same thing???
Get the fuck right out of here.
There is no room for this kind of false equivocation in any honest conversation. You're parroting sheer --and dangerous– propaganda. Take that back to Russia or wherever pays you 10 cents to post it.
I think the root of this was the SCOTUS stepping into the 00 election to stop the Florida recounting. I definitely heard a lot of stolen election rhetoric from liberals and leftists during shrubs first term - and there's some gravity to the claim given the events. It's not the same in Trump's case though, but the details aren't what matters in a game with lowest common denominator voters - only rhetoric matters. Rhetoric is what got 1/6 to happen, and it's what's where the average Republican to support Trump no matter what.
If we're talking about 2000, when Supreme Court justices appointed by Bush's father stepped in and prevented recounts from taking place (which later showed that Bush would have lost) and handed the presidency to Bush; and comparing that to 2021, when the president launched a mob of armed traitors and attacked the capitol, while GOP lawmakers aided them; and saying there's something similar between them, then all hope for meaningful truth is lost.
"Both sides have accused the other of stealing the election!" is only true insofar as one side has actually stolen an election, after which that fact was grumbled about but then accepted peacefully, and then that same side 20 years later launched a failed coup d'état and whined afterwards about the election being stolen. So it's a fact, but presenting it as some sort of equivalence is the peak of dishonesty.
(I know that's not what you're doing, you're just explaining the conversation. But that is what the grandparent post was doing, thus my complaint.)
Totally in agreement here. You know, it reminds me of another aspect of the Florida recounting. Let me dig …
Here we go!
The Brooks Brothers Riot
I mean, yeah. I gave you a primary source of a plethora of prominent democrats, including the current president and vice president, claiming election fraud when Trump was first elected.
I'm guessing your overly abundant use of question marks and italics, as well as lack of any sort of substantive retort other than claiming propaganda, is related to your cognitive dissonance. I'm sorry this doesn't fit your world view.
That's not what a "primary source" is. Links to websites are not primary sources. This is pretty basic stuff.
No, my abundant use of question marks and italics was to emphasize just how stupid and dishonest what you wrote was. You're a dishonest propagandist and you are making the world a worse place. Be better than that.
Oof, you’re really gonna hate that the definition of a primary source includes videos. Pretty basic stuff.
Might wanna consider applying that “stupid and dishonest propaganda” tagline to your comment. Seethe some more sweetie.
Okay "sweetie." I'll take your sincerely regurgitated propaganda to heart, dearie. You have a good night, lovey.
You can definitely be better than this, sweetcheeks.
While you use words of hate, I try to use words of love. Be better honey.
Those video clips are talking about how the electoral college had fucked over the majority of voters 2 out of the last 3 times that Republicans have won the presidency.
And when the voter fraud teams weren’t looking for fraud, they almost exclusively found Republicans who were cheating because they were convinced everyone else was too.
That’s why all the assholes who were running those commissions quietly ended then so fast in 2020.
Except Horseshoe Theory is hot garbage. "Both Sides" is what lazy people come up with. That's like saying hot and cold are practically the same, because they are both temperatures.
https://theconversation.com/horseshoe-theory-is-nonsense-the-far-right-and-far-left-have-little-in-common-77588
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory#Academic_studies_and_criticism
Fuck off with your victimization complex, and go educate yourself.
So, are you denying that democrats claimed election fraud when Trump was elected?
And remember when they kept claiming election fraud long after they lost, and brought 60+ lawsuits, and called Secretaries of State to "find me X votes,", and tried to get the vice president to decertify peoples votes, and tried to send fake Electors to vote for them, and planned to use the Insurrection Act to stay in power?
But please, go off about how they're fundamentally the same.
Which is also in the video I provided.
The Democratic Party itself sued Trump claiming his election was illegitimate.
So a recount, lol.
Democrats did the same thing for Trump — it’s literally within the first two minutes of the video that you apparently neglected to watch.
Democrats tried to get republican electors to reject their oath and vote against the actual election results — very democratic, right?
Which they didn’t, lmfao.
So yeah, as to the issue of complaining about election fraud, they are fundamentally the same. Got any more areas that you want me to remind you of the democratic equivalent for, or would you prefer to actually watch the primary source that you pretty blatantly disregarded before posting all that?
And wouldn't you know it? They stopped. Meanwhile Trump is still beating that drum.
Last I checked, 60 > 1. Also, they had real evidence. Trump had The Kraken.
Yeah, such a "perfect call," it landed him RICO charges in GA and two other upcoming similar cases in NV and LA. But yeah, jUsT a ReCoUnT.
No. And I'll be the first to say they made some idiotic moves. But that's not the same as trying to send fake certificates and a fake slate of Electors, which has landed some of those electors in legal jeopardy. Both bad, magnitude very different.
Oh, soooo much better. It's a good thing Project 2025 doesn't exist… Also, name me a Democrat that ever even floated such an idea.
So yeah, fundamentally the same. No differences at all. Practically the same party. /S
Nope, they didn’t.
Nope, they didn’t.
Charges are not convictions.
The Supreme Court affirmed that the nonconforming electors in 2016 broke state law and upheld criminal penalties against them.
CHAZ was an actual insurrection in Portland undertaken by left-wing groups. Unless you’re talking about elected democrats, in which case feel free to name an elected Republican that was ever proven to have done that.
Got any substantive points, or are you going to just keep peddling misinformation?
It's funny to watch you play the victim.
I don't recall claiming to be a victim. All I did was drop of video of democrats claiming election fraud.
Even if that were the case, which it's clearly not, wouldn't it be better to move slowly towards full-on fascism than speed run it?
What is with all the both-sidesing and accelerationism on here in the last few weeks? Some of you all are either too young or too privileged to remember what living under Trump was really like, and he's been abundantly clear that his next term will be far worse.
You won't find very many enthusiastic Biden supporters, but I'd much rather have four more years of this than four-plus more years of Trump with a grudge and nothing left to lose.
Lotta Libertarian "Centrists" who think they're smart and that they have a choice. They think they will be able to die on the single-issue-hill of Biden's policy stance on Israel and still retain the ability to vote in five years.
Fortunately, as evidenced by most of the comments here, they're still squarely in the minority, and I'll never stop pointing out how bad their arguments are.
Work on ranked choice voting.
Colorado has a ballot measure for that.
Meanwhile check an org working for voting reforms /ranked choice
https://fairvote.org/our-reforms/ranked-choice-voting/
The Federal Fair Representation Act For example, would go a massive way for voting reform.
Agreed. Thanks for pointing that out.
Can you say, "Slippery Slope Fallacy?"
Go learn what a FPTP System is.
Yes. The Democrats would have definitely slowly and politely installed far-right Supreme Court justices that would have ended Roe.
That sounds very credible.
did Joe Biden vote for Clarence thomas?
Did Joe Biden nominate Clarence Thomas? Because that's the issue.
Do you really think Obama or Biden would have installed justices to end Roe if they had the chance? Be serious.
biden voted for Thomas. he DID install him.
Is Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson pro- or anti- abortion?
this is a red herring.
The only example of a Supreme Court justice he nominated is a red herring?
yes. she would not say what she thought about abortion in her confirmation hearings. but we know he did confirm justices who have ruled to vacate roe v wade.
Biden is Catholic so… yes.
Biden has repeatedly said that he was pro-choice. Why don't you even know that?
politicians are notorious for lying and backstabbing.
What evidence do you have that he was in favor of outlawing abortion? Because “he’s a Catholic” is not it. There are whole Catholic organizations that want legal abortion.
https://www.catholicsforchoice.org/who-we-are/our-case-for-support/pro-choice-catholicism-101/
he’s a politician. that’s literally all the evidence I need to believe he might be lying.
Classic hexbear alt