Steps to reproduce:
- Start a Node project that uses at least five direct dependencies.
- Leave it alone for three months.
- Come back and try to install it.
Something in the dependency tree will yell at you that it is deprecated or discontinued. That thing will not be one of your direct dependencies.
NPM will tell you that you have at least one security vulnerability. At least one of the vulnerabilities will be impossible to trigger in your particular application. At least one of the vulnerabilities will not be able to be fixed by updating the versions of your dependencies.
(I am sure I exaggerate, but not by much!)
Why is it like this? How many hours per week does this running-to-stay-in-place cost the average Node project? How many hours per week of developer time is the minimum viable Node project actually supposed to have available?
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Because 99% of Node projects are web related, and if something’s vulnerable on the web it won’t take long to be abused
Hey, a good answer! 🙌
Deno solves this problem :)
My take: It’s because the “trust everything from everybody” model is fundamentally broken.
Note that trust is not only about avoiding malicious or vulnerable code, but also about dependability. Even if you ignore the “supply chain” security problems inherent in this model, it practically guarantees that the breakage you describe will happen eventually.
This is part of why I prefer languages with robust standard libraries, and why I am very picky about dependencies.
For most projects or tools that I find on GitHub these days, I run them all in docker. Node, at least, is somewhat of a good guest. All it’s crap lives in node_modules, and so when I’m done, rm the directory and it’s all clean. Python seems to love leaving relics across my system
At least part of it is that JavaScript is not really a batteries included language like Python or Java to even PHP.
You can’t really do anything productive without relying on a third party library.
All the languages you mentioned have some core APIs included and need to rely on third party libraries for more.
Yes, that's true, but JavaScript has very few core APIs aside from basic DOM manipulation. Even things like comparing timezones requires a third party dependency, for example.
Welcome to my world. Not that I’m using node, but I’m using mediawiki. They manage to f-up something with about every update, and the documentation, if it exists at all, is often enough completely wrong or broken.
So many reasons. JS has a small standard library, a history of competing standards for things like asynchrony and modules, there are tons of different implementations against tons of different specs, running in tons of different environments (whose constraints and opportunities are also changing all the time), it tends to be the first language to receive an SDK for many services, packages tend to be almost-excessively granular because optimizing for size can be so important on certain platforms (tree-shaking and minification works, but takes time), there are many add-on languages like JSX and TS, there are tons of bundlers and transpilers which each have their own quirks… and also due to its unique position as the lingua franca of client-side web, it tends to be the primary battleground for researchers, tech firms, VC, FOSS, malicious users, and everything else.
To stay alive in an ecosystem like that, any project must become a “ship of theseus” kind of deal.
You may be interested in yarn’s “zero-installs” option: https://yarnpkg.com/features/zero-installs
If you set the versions of your dependencies in the package.json file, you’ll reinstall exactly the same ones.
You may get new vulnerability warnings popping up, but what is the issue here ? You’d rather not be aware that a vulnerability has been found since your last development ?
If you are not happy with others modules, dev your own and no one will let you know about security issues 😝
I’m struggling to understand how there can be so many security flaws, even in things that don’t seem to matter for security. I think the bar for a security problem might be too low; a lot of these look like footguns that could give my package a security hole, rather than genuine security flaws in the packages they are reported on.
Here’s a progress bar package with a “high” security vulnerability because it contains an internal utility that merges objects and doesn’t stop you writing to the prototype. Did the progress bar package ever promise to provide an object merge function that was safe to use on untrusted user input?
Here’s a notification UI element that bills using HTML in your notification messages as a feature. It has a “medium” level “XSS” security vulnerability where the
messageparameter is not sanitized to remove HTML. A CVE was issued for this.Here’s an arbitrary code execution vulnerability in sqlite3! High severity! The bug is that, if you tell sqlite3 to substitute an object into an SQL statement, it will run the
ToString()method on the object. If an evil hacker has broken into your lead developer’s house and written a maliciousToString()method into one of the classes of object you use as a database query parameter, then that code would run! The fix here was, instead of letting the normal Javascript stringification rules apply, to hardcode all objects to be inserted into the database as “[object Object]”, because surely that is what the programmer meant to store.deleted by creator
You don’t need to do anything when you get a security advisory if you’re not impacted or the risk is acceptable. They’re just there to advise you.
The problem is that when you are alerted for trivial/non-actionable stuff it contributes to “alert-fatigue” and you just start ignoring all of the alerts.
As far as I’m aware, there’s also no way to triage an alert from an install other than to upgrade the offending package, which means you can’t really discriminate on the basis of “acceptable risk”
You’d rather not be aware that a vulnerability has been found since your last development ?
I’d rather develop with dependencies that don’t have so many vulnerabilities.
Yeah we all wanna do that, but nobody writes perfect code.
That’s why people came up with defensive programming and functional correctness.
Just seems to be difficult for the webdev industry. Seems easier to push fixes from time to time.
Something in the dependency tree will yell at you that it is deprecated or discontinued.
Only if you didn’t pinned the dependencies you actually consume, and expect that all your dependencies magically comply with semver.
Blindly replacing dependency versions never worked, at least reliably. If you do not put in the work to ensure things work, more often than not you’ll be surprised by them not working.
Then you’ll end up with tons of vulnerabilities within days. That can’t be the solution either.
Then you’ll end up with tons of vulnerabilities within days.
You only end up with vulnerabilities if you refuse to update your dependencies. Updating a dependency is something you need to do yourself, along with running build validation tests after a successful update. Just because npm can download newer packages that does not mean those packages are good.
…which is the opposite of the comment above.
So, you still have to go through all the dependencies, vulnerabilities and incompatibilities. Yes, you can now kind of control the timing, but it’s still unacceptable in my opinion, that you have to spend so much time just to not be an active danger to everyone.
NPM is completely alone in that regard. Maven, Pypi, etc. don’t have these problems.
So, you still have to go through all the dependencies, vulnerabilities and incompatibilities.
That’s the point. There is no free lunch. Yet, you can live with stable, pinned versions and only upgrade the ones you really need to, and that means exercise your personal criteria instead of mindlessly upgrade everything just because there was a bump in a version number somewhere in an upstream dependency.
Yes, you can now kind of control the timing,
Timing, extent, scope, and impact. That’s the point.
but it’s still unacceptable in my opinion, that you have to spend so much time just to not be an active danger to everyone.
You only spend the time you decide to spend. There are already vulnerability scanners that pinpoint exactly which versions need to be updated, and do that automatically for you. Mindlessly opening the floodgate to each and every change is by definition idiocy and a liability.
