Only 17% of Arab American voters say they will vote for Biden in 2024, according to a new poll.
Didn't Trump literally already say he was bringing back the Muslim ban and making it worse? But ok, I guess vote for him anyway. Most republican voters vote against their own interests all the time so they'll fit right in until they're deported.
They'll probably just not bother voting for either. Why waste time doing so if you'll get screwed regardless?
Why waste time doing so if you’ll get screwed regardless?
So the solution to this is to sit home knowing full well that benefits the man who is literally campaigning on the promise to screw you harder?
You argue that because you see a difference between them, but for marginalized peoples they are the same.
It's sad you can't see how false that is because of how recent events have unfolded. It's like you've just now looked at politics for the first time. You're so concerned with the marginalized people on the other side of the world you'd let it happen here out of short-sighted spite.
RIGHT NOW, a strict Christian fundamentalist was elected speaker by the GOP. Given further empowerment, he would cause more harm to marginalized people and much of the populace. He has declared his intentions. This will not help the people of Gaza if that's really your only concern.
This is the pure definition of voting against your own interests. And you seem to be perfectly OK with that.
Someone who doesn't see a difference between them is an absolute idiot. It should be very obvious that with Trump, Palestinians would be in a much worse situation. He'd tell Israel they need to go even further or order the US military to also bomb Gaza.
Marginalized peoples are the ones who most understand these differences. Champagne socialists aren't going to see a difference. Rich white straight people don't stand to lose anything.
Because they'll be screwed much, much harder with Trump.
To not get screwed?
If Arabs don't vote for Joe or stay home pouting on the couch on election day, the only thing they'll accomplish is to enable the tragic national nightmare of a second trump misadministration and a whole new tsunami of violent, stochastic terrorism-driven Islamophobia that has already cost innocent Muslim Americans their lives
They’ve been put in a seriously shitty and unwinnable situation. Either way, Arab Americans lose and that’s fucked up.
The system is broken. How bad would Biden have to be to make it not worth voting for him? What could he get away with in this context? When your alternative is Trump the bar is so incredibly low.
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fuck this. This is literally what people said during Trump's first election. Guess what? Making things worse doesn't magically make things better.
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Man, check revolutions throughout history. They don't happen because authoritarian governments get too authoritarian. They happen when authoritarian governments let up the pressure during times of tension.
Authoritarian governments that collapse due to over-authoritarianism typically fall to coups, not revolutions.
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The real answer is to vote local, get involved, if there are no good options run or find a decent person who is capable of running. Either way, support the campaigns of those decent options, do a little volunteering. Change happens from the ground up. Changing the whole system at once is impossible, slowly spreading change from the local level shows other disenfranchised voters there is a chance, and it picks up momentum from there.
Throwing away your vote is a sure fire way to make things worse. Vote for the candidate that has the highest odds of winning who will make things better, or at least not worse. Just because you don't like the candidate on the "left" doesn't mean they're not the one that will objectively do the least harm in office. Letting Trump or anyone else on the right in office is objectively bad on so many measures.
Voting third party is morally reprehensible. Even if it makes you feel better, it's worst for all of us. Don't be selfish.
The US isn't even close to being bad enough for a revolution to happen.
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You probably want to read up on Social Fascists and why the concept you’re espousing is terrible.
History says enabling fascists doesn’t end up with a glorious revolution, but rather a bullet in the head of the left.
Until first past the post is done away with your 3rd candidate vote is an awful idea.
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Voting 3rd party only increases the chance that they'll do it again
It's too bad Americans can only choose between senile old people or criminals to be president
We're choosing between Trump and Trump?
It’s too bad Americans can only choose between senile old people or senile old criminals to be president
FTFY
As long as they don't vote in the primaries that will continue to be a problem.
Primaries are controlled by the parties. If they see a candidate they really don't like *COUGH*Bernie*COUGH*Sanders*COUGH* then they'll pull out all the stops to prevent that candidate from winning. People like to think Trump wasn't wanted by the republican party, but his policies aligned 100% with theirs. Similarly, "hope and change" Obama was allowed to win because he was willing to play ball and went back on most or all of his promises immediately after getting elected.
Political parties also legally don’t even have to respect the results of those primaries since they are private organizations.
Yep. The DNC used this as a defense in open court and still somehow people don’t know about it.
Good thing (for genocide Joe’s ego) the DNC is refusing to hold primaries at all then.
The solution to this is so simple - Biden gets out of the way for literally any other Dem to run and sweep the election. The entrenched power structure won’t have it though.
So, don’t blame Muslim Americans, progressives, or anyone else for Biden’s failure to lead. This is on him and the DNC who backs him.
I really, REALLY hate this line of thinking. I mean with the burning passion of a thousand suns.
Biden is in an unenviable position. Hamas started this war by launching an unprovoked attack knowing full well they couldn't handle the crackback. Israel has taken their retaliation way too far, well beyond the point of being defensible. They've bombed refugee camps and hospitals and when asked about the civillian casualties, basically said "sucks to be them". What they are doing now is committing the exact genocide that they themselves have been worried about for decades if not centuries now. Biden made a mistake by continuing to stand by Israel even after they admit to and just shrug off the atrocities they commit on the daily, but there was never a position where Biden could pick a side (or even choose to remain neutral) without alienating an entire community of people.
And in almost any other situation, I may agree with them in their desire to either vote for another candidate or just sit home. But there are literally only three options here: Hold your nose and vote for Biden, vote for Trump in protest of Biden, or sit home and not vote at all, which is a de facto vote for Trump. In the immortal words of Rush, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." And that choice benefits Trump.
No matter how pissed off you are at Biden right now, do you think it would be any better under Trump? Did the Trump administration give you any indication that Trump is going to suddenly be sympathetic to an entire race of people that he to this day continues to use racial slurs to describe?
Your choices are (a) Biden, or (b) someone exponentially worse than Biden. That's it. This is the reality of the situation. If you do not choose (a), you're choosing (b). If you don't choose at all, you'll be given (b) by default. Your only realistic option is to choose (a). Doing anything else because you disagree with the path Biden chose to take will do nothing but make the situation worse. There is no other option. Voting against Biden or choosing to stay home in protest is a textbook example of cutting off your own nose to spite your face. I stopped supporting Israel in any of this the minute they thought bombing a hospital and writing off hundreds of patients as expendable collateral damage was in some way acceptable, but no matter how much I disagree with Biden's policies, I also know that the only other option available is much, much worse.
Be careful what you wish for, guys. You might get it.
That's a lot of words to say "at least he's not Trump!!" Sure would be nice if democrats had a strategy other than that. You know, like actually trying to improve things. What incentive do democrats have to improve things when your vote is guaranteed because not voting for democrats "is a vote for fascism"? I mean, here is Biden, pledging EVEN MORE billions of dollars to Israel as they ramp up their ethnic cleansing efforts. Democrats being fascists with a kinder image isn't good enough.
It sucks to vote for the least of two evils. But not voting at all is effectively half a vote for the worst of the two. Yeah, it feels like youre resisting if you refuse to play when there's only a two party system. Not gonna accept only having a choice between two crappy people and their parties! Hold out by not voting! Or by voting for someone who has NO chance ? Well great, then you up your chances of next having no choice at all – with just one insane party and its dictator when they make it permanent. Not acting makes you responsible for installing Emperor Trump. Dint kid yourself.
Except voting for democrats is not acting when the end result is largely the same. There needs to be some way to send the message that we want better. The system is designed to bury that message except for rich donors.
Did you not watch television or something from 2016-2020? Biden isn't going to enact a proletarian revolution, but he is LEAGUES less destructive for the country than Trump. Like, night and day difference between the two.
Were you not alive during 2000-2008 or do you have the memory of a goldfish? Trump is just a loudmouthed George W Bush, from the warmongering to the immigration policy (remember Bush's border fence?) to the opposition to abortion, etc, etc. Democrats pretended to be in opposition to Bush, but they've been helping in rehabilitating his image since then. Trump is nothing new, he's just business as usual for republicans. Now we have Biden pledging to massively boost funding for a genocidal ethnostate in the middle of their campaign of bloodlust. Uh, yeah, such night and day difference.
A loudmouthed GWB? Are you for real? Did you see Jan 6 2021? Trump is his own unique dumpster fire burning through every governing norm not explicitly written into law. By saying "man and we thought GWB was bad!" during Trump's term doesn't equal rehabilitating his image to me.
Oh yeah, and Trump is a sore loser who wanted people to overturn election results to get him a second term. He should've done what Bush did who had his bro pull some strings to turn Florida in his favor. Trump may have wanted to steal an election but Bush actually did it. As bad as Trump was, Bush was actually worse.
There needs to be some way to send the message that we want better
Primaries and education
Primaries like 2016 where massive support for Bernie was shouted down as "Bernie Bros" and blamed for Hillary losing somehow? Or are you talking more like 2020 where the party called all other candidates to drop out and put their full support behind Biden right before super tuesday? As for "education" that's rather vague.
The way to send the message is to vote third party. Every Republican I talk to tells me it's a vote for the Democrats and every Democrat I talk to tells me it's a vote for the Republicans. In reality it's a message: We want something else. I really feel like Trump's message in 2016 of draining the swamp had a lot of appeal to people. I live in super red territory and many of the hard core trumpers I have visited with have expressed that our current system is broken and corrupt - they felt like Trump was going to be at least something different. It's a powerful message, unfortunately it's Trump and therefore unconscionable to vote for him.
We need to legitimize and destigmatize multiple options beyond the two terrible parties.
Ross Perot got over 18% of the vote in 1992 which is way higher than any third party could ever hope for these days, but no message was received by the two dominating parties. The attitude is that a third party is a wasted vote and it's reinforced whenever "the other guy" gets in. Democrats, in usual fashion blaming everyone but themselves, were screaming bloody murder at the green party getting like 2% of the vote in 2016, claiming that cost them the election. No changes were made.
It'll have to be good enough for the next 4 years. When the choice is no longer incumbent vs actual monsters…
Pounding fists on the table saying it's unacceptable is just little kid energy; like breaking your own toys cuz you're mad.
I don't necessarily disagree, but the other side of that coin is that every election is painted this way in America.
Not saying it isn't true for Trump, but supposing he loses in 24, you don't think the GOP will stay sufficiently shitty that in 28 they send him up again, or a younger old white guy who's still sufficiently horrible?
It's a very very calculated part of the two party system that the Other Guy is offensive enough to those on the fringes of the tent to shame, scare, or guilt them into voting for "their" guy.
Again, I don't disagree with you, especially in this case, but it's exactly how the parties are designed to work to perpetuate the illusion of choice. If the Democrats can just point to Trump to convince progressives to keep voting for their guy, when or why would they ever shift their platform in a direction to court more progressive voters?
Exactly, it's part of the democratic party strategy. Let's not forget that Hillary Clinton's team did what they could to position Trump to be the republican nominee: https://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/
Democrats regularly promote fascists so that they can position themselves as heroes for "standing up to fascism", a problem which they actively contribute to. It allows them to not actually improve things while pretending they're the thin blue line separating civil society from wanton destruction.
A friend of mine is very much a Democrat, capital D.
Like…we obviously agree on most issues, but he's a fairly centrist (American style) moderate Democrat who is active in working with and for his local party organization and basically while he might not like every single thing they do, he doesn't dislike any of it enough to stop volunteering for the party, much less even think of voting anything other than party line.
This is one of the big areas where we've disagreed.
He's of the same mindset as the comments we've replied to, often repeating the same rationale of, "Look, I get it, you want more progress and want different things than the main centrist moderate portion of the party. I get that and I agree with you. But you aren't getting that with the other side, so what you need to do is vote for what we want in the center, and then once we're in positions of power, that's the only chance you have of getting what you want."
To that I've often responded that progressives have tried that route for ages, and all it's ever gotten them is a party that takes them for granted, and keeps making these far right boogymen to scare their left wing into votes. They've made it clear over and over again that they'll never, ever move left or adopt any platform positions desired by the progressives until and unless those progressives withhold their support.
The party played chicken with progressives in 2016 and underestimated not only the resolve of the progressives but also the apathy of the moderate voters (which they also take for granted…as much as they like to paint the GOP as a party who's identity is nothing more than anti whatever the Dems want, the Dems themselves have also become the party of "we deserve your vote simply because we're not them").
I'm very pleased that my district is currently represented by a progressive. She doesn't always vote the way I feel on every issue, but even with that taken into account, I feel like she's doing more to move the country in a direction I want than a centrist would have, and I'll happily support her next fall.
They’ve made it clear over and over again that they’ll never, ever move left or adopt any platform positions desired by the progressives until and unless those progressives withhold their support.
As a counterpoint – the Democratic party is further left than it's been in ages. There hasn't been an administration that's taken climate change more seriously than this. Topics championed by Progressives are discussed within the mainstream party and aspects are included. The infrastructure bill, inflation reduction act, and American rescue plan are all great examples of this.
This didn't happen because progressives withheld their support. It's because progressives gave their support. Bernie ultimately has been the ideological winner. It's clear which direction the party is going. And it's noteworthy that a big reason why he works so well with Biden is that they're friends, or at least friendly colleagues. Biden was friendly to Sanders in the Senate, and that's what opened the door. It's cooperation and friendship that moves the policies we want forward.
This is just as much a lesson to moderates as well, that they need to be a lot more cooperative and conciliatory and way less antagonistic to progressives.
I continue to vote democrat straight down the ballot every time. Might as well, especially since I can mail in the ballot so it's not like it's much effort on my part, but I don't see any avenue to send the message that I'm not satisfied with most of the party's policies, which align mainly with the interests of the rich.
They claim that they'll deliver if they can get power, but when they do get that power, it's always conveniently blocked by the exact number of democrats that will magically flip to the other side in order to prevent it. Seems like if they do get a super majority, they'll claim that they must be doing something right to gain such support and will thus stay the course. There just doesn't seem to be a to voice disapproval in a way that matters. Here are Americans voicing their disapproval in a way that democrats can hear, but Biden continues to pledge overwhelming support for genocide, even though he has the power to do otherwise.
Biden pledging additional billions of dollars to Israel while they're actively committing genocide is being an actual monster. It's actual monsters vs actual monsters here. If your only strategy is "always vote for us 100% of the time or the fascists will win" while also committing acts of fascism, then clearly the only outcome can be fascism. Even a little kid can see that, but you're a super smart adult who is content with fascism because supposedly to accept genocide is the mature thing to do.
Biden isn't going to try to destroy democracy, and there's still down ballot Dems to put Biden in a bind. My strategy is to vote for Biden, but vote in Dems that takes in naunces of Israel-Hamas war in the downballot.
This is the way.
Hey, both parties may be bad for Palestinians in Palestine. But they both haven't been equally bad for Americans, and I'll always vote for my own self interests because I'd be stupid not to. I just happen to also think it'll still end up being in their best interests as well.
I just happen to also think it'll still end up being in their best interests as well.
Elaborate on this. If you're looking at anything happening in Gaza this is an insane take. "A little genocide is good for you"
You're obviously trolling. When you wrote that, did you think anyone would say yes? Presidential elections are about so much more than a single global conflict. It factors into my personal decision almost 0% because I know the other option on the table is just as happy to see Muslims die. Since they are the same in that aspect, it's not worth consideration.
Now, one of the parties ensured my health care coverage when I was unemployed, and the other encouraged acts of sedition. Its not a hard choice.
Self interests such as…? I sure would love to enjoy the benefits of voting democrat, but I've yet to find any. I've only voted democrat and absolutely refuse to ever vote for republicans, but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking it's actually making a difference.
It's gonna sound really patronizing to explain how voting works and how your vote literally counts the same as your neighbors. So, instead, I'll ask you to complete your secondary school education on your own.
Being told your votes doesn't count because of how the electrol college works ignores what happens when states flip by a few hundred votes. It absolutely counts. If everyone actually did vote, it'd be an interesting world.
My own self interests tend to be keeping the party in place that appoints Supreme Court justices that don't roll back peoples rights or elects officials that implement social programs I support, like expanded healthcare, lunch programs and social services. They also take the place of politicians pushing book bans etc.
It's gonna sound really patronizing because you are being patronizing. You're also completely missing the point. My vote is counted as in they literally count the vote, but both parties bend to the wills of rich donors. The problem is that democrats are not making a difference.
Your own self interests apparently lie with the party that just sat around with their thumbs up their ass and let republicans block Obama's last supreme court justice. Not like it matters much, because when democrats do appoint supreme court justices, they appoint the most milquetoast, spineless cowards that will uphold the failing status quo at best. The direction of the supreme court is obvious.
If you're stupid enough to think democrats actually care about the things you've listed, here's a reality check: https://www.reuters.com/article/obama-abortion/obama-says-abortion-rights-law-not-a-top-priority-idUKN2946642020090430
Obama had the chance to make a lasting difference, and he ran on such promises, but then he turned his back on those promises the second he got in. Democrats sometimes talk the talk, but they never walk the walk. Look in the mirror because you're the prime example of what's wrong with the democratic party, a collection of patronizing jackasses who have a savior complex but are completely worthless when it comes to real change.
And in 4 years it'll be another mediocre candidate who will be elected because they're the lesser of two evils. It's not like they've got statistics on their side.
The fact that "it's not Trump" isn't enough only shows how far US politics has fallen.
Would you be happy being imprisoned for life justifying it as "at least I'm not being actively tortured the whole time"? The richest country in the world can do a lot better, don't settle for the bare minimum (and in many cases, less than the bare minimum).
You know there are 3 branches of government right? It just so happens that the Senate in the legislative branch is controlled by obstructionist Republicans.
Umm. I know the point you are trying to make, but making a factual error as part of your argument really undermines the statement. The US senate is currently controlled by Democrats. It's a slim majority, but it is a Dem majority.
The HOUSE is controlled by Republicans. Which means the American Bicameral CONGRESS is split between the Democratic senate and Republican House. It doesn't change your point, and I am not trying to be pedantic, it just makes you sound ill informed and undermines your point.
What does that have to do with Biden's (read: BIDEN'S (in case you missed it: BIDEN'S)) proposal to immensely increase funding to Israel while they're carrying out genocide? If there's one thing I'd like republicans to obstruct, it'd be this. Instead, they're on the same page. So much for democrats not being the same, huh?
Biden made a mistake by continuing to stand by Israel even after they admit to and just shrug off the atrocities they commit on the daily, but there was never a position where Biden could pick a side (or even choose to remain neutral) without alienating an entire community of people.
In the immortal words of Rush, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."
Sounds like your own quote is contradicting your own point there, chief.
But yeah, you're sadly in a 'lesser of two evils' situation. American foreign policy teaches that this usually gets fixed by assassinating one of the evils and waiting for the power vacuum to be filled by an even lesser evil - repeat until satisfied with the result. I suggest you guys get together and put that second amendment to work.
That's the reality of the two party system. They don't matter, because what are they ultimately gonna do, vote for the other guy?
Or just not vote.
So few people vote that it doesnt even read as a protest anymore but "voter apathy" and one party benefits more from it.
I mean, at this point if they want to support fascist white supremacy, there's not much I can do for them. That's what not voting is.
If they feel like that, at least vote for downballot and leave the top blank. We have downballot Dems who are in support of civilians in Israel-Hamas war and make it clear that aid for war is not unconditional.
Even if they do, the Palestinian diaspora has almost no presence in “swing states” in the US.
What are you talking about? Detroit has a ton of them and Michigan is a swing state.
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Man the amount of people in this thread that can't understand that some people don't want to vote for someone who is supporting a genocide of their own people. "But Trump is worse!" Well, yeah, but this is still pretty fucking bad, and were I American I'd hesitate to support it too. It's not like most of these people will vote for Trump, they'll just stay home or vote for a 3rd party.
Those comments make me so angry. There is a genocide being perpetrated on Arabs in Palestine, and Biden is actively defending it. It should be absolutely no surprise that Muslims and Arabs are not going to vote for a genocide denying turd actively trying to fund and arm the perpetrator.
For real, Democratic administrations can't go and have whatever abhorrent policies, including actively supporting an ethnic cleansing, and turn around and go "the other guy is worse, actually. And if YOU don't vote for us it's YOUR fault if this country devolves into fascism"
That is not what a functioning democracy looks like.
The USA has not had a functioning democracy in a very long time.
I would argue never
Someone just replied to me saying exactly that. Bravo!
It should be absolutely no surprise that Muslims and Arabs are not going to vote for a genocide denying turd actively trying to fund and arm the perpetrator.
I can't see how voting for the guy who's going to fund and arm the perpetrator anyway, while using racial slurs to describe you and get you kicked out of the country is any better.
voting for the guy who's going to fund and arm the perpetrator anyway
There's your reason right there, everything else literally doesn't matter. Would you be surprised if a Jewish person didn't vote for a Holocaust enabler, even if the alternative was someone else who was even more antisemitic?
I also don't see where you're getting Muslims are going to vote for trump from, they're just going to stay home. This is what democrats are best at, blowing minority support because they lack a backbone. If Muslims will suffer either way, why should they even participate?
"Vote blue no matter who" is a moot point to many people, particularly minorities, who will continue to suffer either way. Biden is supporting the murder of Muslims, how could they stomach bubbling his dumbass zionist name on election day?
There’s your reason right there, everything else literally doesn’t matter. Would you be surprised if a Jewish person didn’t vote for a Holocaust enabler, even if the alternative was someone else who was even more antisemitic?
I'm not saying that they have good choices available. And again, I completely understand your point. But you continue to ignore the reality of the situation. In your example, it's like asking the Jewish person to vote for a Holocaust enabler vs. a Holocaust enabler that actively wants to put them in the gas chambers. Neither one is a good choice by any stretch of the imagination, but even given two extremely bad choices, why choose the one that has a much higher chance of bringing the hate directly to your doorstep?
It's the classic Sophie's Choice. But in this case, rather than having to choose between one child or the other, you're essentially advocating for an alternative where they both die.
I also don’t see where you’re getting Muslims are going to vote for trump from, they’re just going to stay home. This is what democrats are best at, blowing minority support because they lack a backbone. If Muslims will suffer either way, why should they even participate?
Staying home is a de-facto vote for Trump. Especially in a swing state like Michigan. And if Biden were to take the side of the Palestinians, he'd be alienating the entire Jewish population instead. Taking a neutral stance would probably just end up pissing both groups off. While I don't necessarily agree with the position Biden is taking on this, I also understand that there was never an option available to him that wasn't going to piss someone off.
“Vote blue no matter who” is a moot point to many people, particularly minorities, who will continue to suffer either way. Biden is supporting the murder of Muslims, how could they stomach bubbling his dumbass zionist name on election day?
Once you start throwing around extremist rhetoric like "zionist", I stop paying attention. And I'm still not sure where essentially supporting a man who is openly and unapologetically racist against Muslims and wants them all deported is considered a good idea.
Yes, they're being asked to throw up in their mouths a little while voting for the least bad option. I don't deny that. But you have to understand that if you don't do that, you're going to get someone who's even worse.
First off:
I'm a zionist - Biden himself, literally
Second: It shouldn't be hard to understand that Muslims want to send a message, a Biden loss would result in introspection in the democratic party (if they have the wherewithal, highly doubtful)
Third: Plenty of Jewish people particularly in America do not unconditionally support Israel as Biden has. All he had to do is force humanitarian aid through in return for further aid. Which would allow the least amount of anger from both sides.
Instead he has decided to completely ignore the very legitimate grievances of one side while fully endorsing the other. Which is exactly what the GOP does, do they enjoy wide Jewish support?
Lastly:
Once you start throwing around extremist rhetoric like "zionist", I stop paying attention
Thanks for discussing this in good faith by calling my reasonable grievances "extremist rhetoric". This is exactly what is alienating Muslims. Perfectly proving the point.
First off:
I’m a zionist - Biden himself, literally
Second: It shouldn’t be hard to understand that Muslims want to send a message,
And the message you'll be sending is that you're perfectly OK electing a President who actively hates you and wants you deported. In what universe do you think Trump is going to be any better for the Muslim community?
a Biden loss would result in introspection in the democratic party (if they have the wherewithal, highly doubtful)
No, it'll cause them to wait and say "I told you so" when Trump makes your situation exponentially worse.
Third: Plenty of Jewish people particularly in America do not unconditionally support Israel as Biden has. All he had to do is force humanitarian aid through in return for further aid. Which would allow the least amount of anger from both sides.
It would have done no such thing. It would just cause both sides to demand answers as to why Biden isn't trying to step in and interfere on their behalf.
Instead he has decided to completely ignore the very legitimate grievances of one side while fully endorsing the other. Which is exactly what the GOP does, do they enjoy wide Jewish support?
Again, you are advocating punishing Biden for his decision in all of this by advocating for the re-election of someone who will not only do the exact same thing anyway, but someone who also actively hates you. You continue to fail to understand that there is no scenario where going down that path is in any way going to work out well for you. You are advocating not only making the situation worse, but electing a man who has campaigned on bringing the hate directly to your doorstep.
Lastly:
Once you start throwing around extremist rhetoric like “zionist”, I stop paying attention
Thanks for discussing this in good faith by calling my reasonable grievances “extremist rhetoric”.
No, I called your use of the word "zionist" in that context extremist rhetoric.
This is exactly what is alienating Muslims. Perfectly proving the point.
Calling you out for using extremist rhetoric is "alienating muslims"? Or is it just not agreeing with you?
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It's the difference between a "genocide enabler" and a "genocide enacter". It should be clear which is even the smallest bit worse.
Ask yourself this:
Trump moved the US embassy to Jerusalem against the wishes of virtually everybody outside of Israel. He has repeatedly attempted to ban Muslim immigration altogether. What do you think Trump would have done in Biden's position? Be realistic.
Trump would have done the exact same thing. Heck, he may have sent over some fighter jets himself. There is no situation where Trump would have handled the situation in a way that would have better benefitted the people of Gaza. If anything, he'd have used the Hamas attack to re-enact and justify his Muslim bans.
You realize that Trump and the Maga cult will do the same exact thing right? Evangelicals think Isreal has to be there for their rapture to occur? They also pump the military industrial complex more so than democrats do but you think voting for the literal Christian Fascist will end better for Arab populations? And not voting just gives more power to trump. Honestly I get there is a lot of emotion here but you can't be that fucking stupid and short sited right? I hate what's going on but we still live in a dual party system and unless you genocide half the US population that's not gonna change anytime soon. Maybe in 2028 if all unions can get their contracts to align and effectively create a general strike legally we could finally see some change but it takes time.
Jesus Christ.
Everyone knows that Trump sucks more.
Both are zionists, both enable genocide, both treat Muslims as second class citizens. Muslims are dehumanized, ignored, and suffer either way.
Nobody's vote is a guarantee, what part of that is so hard to understand?
Not voting for Biden, is not voting for Trump, it's sending a message to democrats that their position is untenable and needs to be revised. You can pretend all you want that all Americans have the luxury of voting for a lesser evil. That option does not exist for Muslims after October 7th.
I absolutely will never vote for a psychopath that enables the starvation of over a million of children. Regardless of who those children are, regardless of what political positions are held by that individual.
Don't blame Muslims when Biden loses. Blame Biden for making 1.8 billion people, including millions of Americans, hate him so much they would sacrifice anything to see him lose.
Don't blame Muslims when Biden loses. Blame Biden for making 1.8 billion people, including millions of Americans, hate him so much they would sacrifice anything to see him lose.
No I will because we have billions starving all over the globe, genocides in China, Russians trying to take over Ukraine and destabilize our governments and you are just happily playing along because you do not understand you not voting is fucking voting. You are not making a point by ensuring we go into fascism, you are actively enabling fascism. I blame religions in general for where we are today and people's lack of ability to realize they are complete bullshit. How many more may die of your inaction? If Biden wins and we make sure we vote in proper representatives, then we can still work to better the situation he isn't a fuckikg dictator like trump wants to be if you just throw up your hands and let democracy die there is no chance at aiding this situation or making it better. You are eating into the right wing propaganda that causes you to vote against your interest but go off on how you aren't being an enabler. Fucking idiots this world is filled with, absolute morons.
The simple fact is that Biden and his administration can immediately provide relief to millions of innocent people by forcing Israel to allow humanitarian aid and a humanitarian ceasefire in exchange for further US funding, as opposed to the carte blanche funding, support, and military aid we are currently giving to them as they ethnically cleanse gaza.
All of the other problems are out of Biden's reach, he can't stop the genocide of the Uyghur people, he can't force Russia to give up, and he can't feed the "billions" starving around the globe.
If censoring Palestinian and American Muslim voices and actively chaperoning a genocide isn't fascist to you, then I don't think you understand the term.
I absolutely will never vote for a psychopath that enables the starvation of over a million of children. Regardless of who those children are, regardless of what political positions are held by that individual.
Congratulations then on enabling an even worse psychopath to take office and hurt even more children around the globe through his decisions. You're deciding that whatever happens under Trump vs whatever happens under Biden doesn't matter to you, it'll be the same. I'm not pleased with Biden here either, but if Republicans gain power, a lot more people are going to suffer.
Not making a choice is still making a choice. You don't want to actively vote for a lesser evil, so you pick the option that may enable an even greater evil. It's a myth that when there's two lesser evils, you can choose to pick none – because that in itself is a lesser evil.
Frankly. It's selfish. You don't want to dirty your conscience, and you're content to let a lot more children die and experience hardship because of it.
Man, the amount of people in this thread that don't understand downballot exists, and that's the best tool to force direction changes within upballot. I always vote for the least worst on the upballot and exclusively progressive+educated in the downballot.
I understand what you're saying, but it means they approve more (or disapprove less…) of whomever will get elected.
Shitty situation to be in for sure though.
I disapprove of both.
The situation is the fault of Democrats so I won't be voting for them. I won't vote at all. My views are not represented
Or instead of serving the side which is in even more in favour of genocide (Republicans) by not voting, you could actually vote in the Democratic primaries in an attempt to ensure they have better candidates.
Your aggressive apathy only serves one side.
Right now, we have a Democrat president. He is the man with the power - and therefore the responsibility - to condemn any atrocities commited. And what is he doing? In every speech he makes, he is openly supporting Israel and its policies. And he doesn't just stop at words, he supports a gigantic aid package for Israel as well.
There is nothing "higher" in the genocide-supporter-olympics.
Even more in favor of genocide? What's the difference when the end result is the same? Israel will not stop until it has completely wiped out the Palestinians and taken their land by killing them or otherwise removing them. Let's pretend democrats are better in this regard (questionable, given the crazy amount of additional billions that Biden has pledged to Israel while they're actively committing genocide), is a slow genocide any better than a slightly faster one? Excuses are made in other policies as "harm reduction" which is already a flimsy excuse in matters not as deadly but where is the harm reduction here?
Keep that in mind when Trump starts the deportations
Do you guys enjoy continually going through this cycle of 'vote for the least bad war criminal or society will collapse' every 4 years? You realise that you're going to lose at some point, right? It amazes me that liberals keep doing this and never think of trying anything else.
The 'something else' would be a better voting system that's not two party. In the meantime, our choices are bad or worse.
Maybe you should put this energy in advocating for change, rather than shaming people into voting for war criminals. You say "in the meantime" like it's just going to come around to you with no action.
A vote happens once every four years. We are perfectly capable of doing other things on non-voting days. It's not mutually exclusive
Why should I even care to read what you write since you're apparently not even trying to read what I do.
“Look, we’re not silly—we know what Trump has done to our communities,” says Amer Zahr, the president of the Dearborn-based New Generation for Palestine. But when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, he continues, “The policies are basically the same. Except when Trump does it, you get some pushback from the Democratic Party.”
Positively delusional.
Right? Like great, vote for the GOP, they will definitely care about Arab policies. /s
Foolish and short sighted. Sorry but 2/3 of the US population supports Israel in this conflict, and likely all of the remaining 1/3 is from the young liberal left. Biden is an old democrat, expecting any other result was naive.
But sure, elect an authoritarian Trump. Then instead of protesting, just get thrown in a camp for not being white and christian.
It's like they've forgotten Trump's policies on Israel that were explicitly reversals of Dem policy during Obama, and even reversals of former, less jingoistically pro-Israel policies of the pre-Obama GOP. Which, mind, were major wins for the far-right government of Bibi which is currently in power in Israel, and eked into power by a fucking thread.
I guess the great thing about being an American is how well everyone assimilates, regardless of ethnic origin. They're just following in the long and storied American tradition of being fucking clueless about foreign affairs and having the political memories of goldfish.
So they're going to vote for Trump? Trump is a very strong ally to Israel. Trump certified their land grab of the golan heights. Best guess is he would certify the land grab of all of gaza
No, they just probably won't vote at all or vote for a third party who won't win.
Not that it's a good idea, but that's what will probably happen. And tbf this is more of a problem resulting from the two party system, so most people don't like to follow the logic of vote for the lesser evil when there are many other countries that don't force you into such a situation on literally every political decision.
Which is fair. Neither side really has your back on anything.
Is it better to vote for something you want and not get it, or something you don't want and get it.
I mean a lot would vote for trump for his conservatives views, because these people only care about if you're willing to hurt the "right" people, even if you hurt the "wrong" people as well.
The Founding Fathers envisioned it this way.
After they were done slaughtering the natives
The unfortunate reality is that Biden is their option that's most likely to cause the least further harm.
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If they vote for Trump, that son of a bitch would be ordering our military to also bomb them, and telling Israel to go further.
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Third parties don't even take themselves seriously.
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Not voting at all is still a decision, one that may result in Trump.
I'm not thrilled with Biden's response here either, and I wish he would tell Israel they've gone way too far. But there's really no other choice. The position to take here is clear, but unenviable.
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GAH ZAH. Have you seen this place? Rubble everywhere. You can't live there. It's in Israel, isn't it? I say, let the Israelis have their pile of rubble. Those Palestinians don't live there anymore, can't imagine why! They should take all of that rubble, crush it down into TINY TINY pebbles, and dump it all on Hilary's front lawn!
I still don't understand why the US only has a two-party system, and both of them suck ass. Can't they elect someone else who actually has actual goals that actually benefit the country and its people? Why aren't they allowed to do something like this? So much for freedom.
First past the post and the electoral college
Any third party candidate has next to no chance of winning, we have to vote against one side, not for another, so a 3rd party has to get enough support that they can pull the entire base of one side or the other side wins.
Yeah this is just crazy
Don't forget single-member districts.
Primary in candidates who want to change the system
And educate people on the side
I don't get it
The two party system is the system we have because we believe in the efficacy of it. I know we make the "vote blue no matter who" arguments but thats fucking exactly what they want. The parties are perfectly positioned to secure different sections of voters and lock them in. Where I felt like I wouldnt want another choice two weeks ago, I am far more likely to consider it now.
The two party system is the system we have because we believe in the efficacy of it.
No, noone believes in the efficacy of it. It is the system you have because it is now beyond anyone's powers to reform it. It is a mixture of archaic and wilfully corrupt laws and rules, which has petrified into something that disproportionally serves one minority fringe and its interests over all others.
The majority of people does not think it serves their interests, but they are powerless to change it exactly because the small but powerful group whom it actually benefits has disproportionate power to prevent it from happening.
I'm glad to read this, some of that vote-against-biden rhetoric was starting to get into my head this week 😮💨
TBF, if Time magazine is saying this then it should cause at least some general concern as we're a week + one year out from the vote. Single issue voters exist. I'm not addressing/excusing the rationale behind this and I can't believe I'm calling this pain down on myself, but where are all the "big tent Dems" at? I mean, we can rationalize pandering to the right to pick up house moms that would otherwise vote for Trump, but the concerns of the Arab Americans are a bridge to far? This seems like a blind spot that could come back to haunt us like not campaigning in the midwest in 16'.
Before I get the "blue no matter whos" choir on me as well, just remember there's a saying that proceeded that; "Democrats vote with their heart" and we need to be very mindful of everyone that relates to, as we can't afford to lose anyone. Hate doesn't need to be rational. It often finds it's best fuel to be emotion.
I mean, man, if I had my way, I'd say fuck Israel, either reduce aid drastically or demand more accountability regarding civilian casualties. But unfortunately, a good half of Dem voters are still quite content to support Israel unconditionally. I absolutely am in favor of reaching out to the Arab-American community, but I doubt it's going to happen anytime soon.
Honestly, the 'best' realistic outcome is that many of us will remember this shitshow, especially those who are young enough to still be forming opinions on international affairs, and unconditional support for Israel will drop further with upcoming voting age cohorts.
Pug Jesus, you always spoil me by the grace of your presence. I hear ya. With the shit shows I've been in the middle of lately, doubly so. I didn't think as much of this when I first heard it, but this is like the 3rd time I'm hearing it and it feels like someone out there in media thinks this is worth warning about.
It already seems like the Biden admin is beginning to see that they are between a rock and a hard place here, so I think a lot of it will come down to how they handle this. Both parties and this system is beyond fucked, but we're all at the mercy of it till someone can take fascism off the table and put it back in the toilet. I just really hope that they don't fuck this up man. It already looks like Biden can't get Israel back on "plan" or pull back on the reins anymore or it would have happened middle of last week. So it feels fucked.
I was knocking doors for candidates today and had an old man just go on for 20 minutes about how things are all falling apart because of 20 years of immigration and that he knew who was secretly all behind it. Yup, Obama. And THAT is why you don't hear about him in the news anymore.
I don't want this war to come back here but maybe it was always inevitable. Just so you know, rifle plates and carriers are relatively cheap. <3
Pug Jesus, you always spoil me by the grace of your presence. I hear ya.
You're too kind! I'm just a bored cripple who pays too much attention to things that make him sad.
With the shit shows I've been in the middle of lately, doubly so. I didn't think as much of this when I first heard it, but this is like the 3rd time I'm hearing it and it feels like someone out there in media thinks this is worth warning about.
Honestly, I don't think anyone was really expecting this level of… indelicate operations from the Israelis. We'd all gotten 'used' to the general oppression and Israeli "Totally guys, we use responsible and discriminate military force in Gaza" excuses, and now it just feels very… mask off. I suspect some apparatchiks in the Israeli government are pissed right now that so much PR work to enable a quiet genocide is being flushed down the drain.
I don't want this war to come back here but maybe it was always inevitable. Just so you know, rifle plates and carriers are relatively cheap. <3
Argh. As fucked as things are, I tell myself of all the crisis moments we've had to deal with, the country only dissolved into civil war once. One hopes that once was enough - and that the alternative isn't worse.
Maybe something to pass the time then? https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-after-the-revolution-82966686/
If you haven't already listened to it of course. I think it's a pretty fun and zany, post revolt schism, sort of cyber punkish/ anti christofascist romp.
Argh. As fucked as things are, I tell myself of all the crisis moments we've had to deal with, the country only dissolved into civil war once. One hopes that once was enough - and that the alternative isn't worse.
I've started to wonder if corruption on the global scale hasn't made all the superpowers incompetent. The US covid response, J6, the current shitshow, and a lack of response to the Republican obstructionism has really lowered my opinion of how robust our government stateside is. I'm unsure that another civil war here would really even be recognizable as such outside maybe fights evolving between cities, states, and the federal government. Probably raids back and forth from those not in the middle. Attacks on supply lines and infrastructure. Who knows really.
Very few see these conflicts for what they really are anyway, (which by my reckoning is) the beginning of the climate wars.
I guess at least we've got the brains on our side and that makes things a little more hopeful. And the blessings of his holy Pugness of course.
"both sides" ☝️🤓
How are democrats different from republicans when it comes to israel? If the shoe fits…
At least some democrats are willing to admit that Israel may have done some bad
Too bad that doesn't make a bit of difference to the party's policies.
Yes, they are indeed another Neoliberal party. However, they're still better then the Republicans. If you don't want to vote for the Democrats… The Libertarian party… Exists?.. Somewhat
Too bad voting third party is about as effective as not voting at all. Libertarians are mostly just republicans by another name anyway.
Libertarians are very different from Republicans, sadly the Libertarian party panders to Republicans.
If they're pandering to republicans then how can they be very different?
Yeah this is the point at which pressure to pick a side, even if it's a contest between unacceptable options, gets in the way of being able to have the conversations necessary for a people to engage in self-governance.
Would I like it if I could vote directly on the question of whether or not to send money and military aid to a country engaged in apartheid and genocide? From my POV Israel should be pressured to choose between having US backing and continuing to commit obvious crimes against humanity, but unfortunately the false-binary rhetoric field is super-strong on this issue and obvs that means I should be shamed for being nazi-level anti-semitic or something like that /s
HOW DARE THE BROWN PEOPLE NOT VOTE FOR OUR PREFERRED GREMLIN? DON'T THEY KNOW OUR GREMLIN WILL EAT TWICE AS FEW FACES AS THE OTHER SIDES GREMLIN? IS THAT WHAT THEY WANT, A GREMLIN THAT EATS DOUBLE THE AMOUNT OF FACES? THEY SHOULD KNOW THAT WE KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR THEM WHEN IT COMES TO GREMLINS AND FACE EATING.
I mean yeah that's exactly what they should do.
Hey! This guy says he's gonna fuck us over twice as hard as the other guy! We should all ignore that fact and vote for him anyway because we're already being fucked! Might as well make it worse right? Like what's the worst that could happen they start genociding us here? Lmao no bro this is America they'd never really let such horrendous things occur here!
THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING. THESE BROWN SKINS NEED TO JUST DO WHAT WE TELL THEM IS BEST FOR THEM AND STOP HOLLERING SO MUCH. WE'VE ALREADY GIVEN THE. SO MUCH BY LETTING THEM IN OUR COUNTRY.
only 17% of Arab American voters saying they will vote for Biden in 2024—a staggering drop from 59% in 2020.
Alternate headline: 42% of Arab Americans decide to assist in electing the greater evil because Palestine.
