But that district court judge, Sarah Wallace, ultimately ruled that Trump could remain on the ballot because she said it was not clear that the drafters or ratifiers of the 14th Amendment intended to cover the presidency in the insurrection clause.
This part really pissed me off. The 14th amendment is pretty clear that it refers to any and all people. Is it just me, or is judge Wallace implying that it isn’t clear that the founders believed the president is a person?
Why did you omit to exclude them [The office of the President and Vice President]?
— Sen. Reverdy Johnson (D-MD)
Let me call the Senator’s attention to the words ‘or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States’
— Sen. Lot Morrill (R-MA)
It was a very specific question that was answered by the Senate while they were discussing it. So Judge Wallace’s determination is incorrect on the merits. Judges can be wrong sometimes, that’s why we have appeals.
Here’s the relevant page for anyone to lazy too click through. He even goes on to say “perhaps I am wrong as to the exclusion of the presidency, no doubt I am.”
There was also some interesting debate on if it should expire after 1870, and the response was a pretty resounding no, it should be the law of the land forever. Some people recently have also pointed out the phrase about giving congress the power to enact laws to these effect, suggesting it doesn’t do anything unless congress makes a specific law enforcing it. That didn’t seem to be the view when they added it in to the amendment though, they wanted to say congress explicitly had that power so that it could override state law if states were in conflict with the constitution here. There was a concern that if they didn’t add that, then only states would have the power by definition (any powers not explicitly given to the federal government are devolved to the states), and confederate states might choose not to enforce all the provisions of the fourteenth amendment. This would let congress explicitly over ride state laws in respect to equal protection and other parts of the amendment including the insurrection part. Obligatory IANAL disclaimer, but it was very interesting to read through. Some of the things I’m referencing were from an earlier day, may 23rd, there were a number of days where the amendment was brought up.
I thought the insurrection clause was a hard reach, but it feels really buttoned up when you take into account the discussions. Like I don’t even see any maneuvering room. Which kinda sucks because I had emotionally accepted he was going to be the nominee and now I have hope.
What’s really interesting is, what if he stays off the ballot in CO but wins the race? He’s be the President of the US but ineligible to be President in CO. Seems like an actual constitutional crisis unless the SCOTUS ruling automatically removes him from every state.
If SCOTUS rules that trump can be removed from the Colorado ballot there will be a domino effect that will see him removed from a large number of other states.
There’s zero chance of a 2nd trump term if SCOTUS rules that way.
That’s not exactly true. Unless some battleground states remove him from the ballot it doesn’t matter what the states who were going to vote blue do. He wasn’t going to win there anyway. As a Colorado voter I would put us in that category. Trump’s not winning CO no matter what happens in this case.
Surely if the supreme court ruled that if he wasn’t eligible in one state then any single person in other states could use that ruling to have him removed from any state they live in?
That would depend on which interpretation of eligible we end up with. We might see a ban on removing him from ballots, individual states being left to decide, removal from all ballots, or some other other weird scenario. Nothing is straightforward with that man and I don’t expect this situation to turn out any different.
Based on what I read from discussions of the amendment passing at the time in the documents above, it sounds odd but it might be the case. Again IANAL, but they added a clause in the amendment that specifically says something to the effect of congress can make laws to enforce this. The idea being if they didn’t have that clause the power would be assumed to automatically devolve to the states, because of the part of the constitution that says any powers not delegated specifically to the federal government go to state governments. So basically there’s at least one interpretation here where unless congress makes a specific law enforcing the provision, it would be up to specific states to implement as they saw fit. I think it’s most likely the supreme court weasels out of this whole thing somehow still, but there might be a chance something like that could happen.
It could end up with SCOTUS deciding states have the full right to decide what candidates they allow (has historical backing) but they would probably also need to argue that invalidation as a candidate in a minority of states doesn’t invalidate their power as an elected president, or else it gets very very complicated fast.
Jefferson Davis and Robert E Lee were some of the few that were barred from holding office until like, the 70’s, when it was reversed posthumously. As with all things Trump, entertaining the question to begin with is pretty fucking stupid.
The supreme Court reversed saying as much, however even with all Democrat judges the decision was 4-3. Dissenting judges were concerned about the lack of due process, basically Trump hasn’t been convicted. This is despite the fact that Trump’s legal representation did defend against the plaintiffs claims.
None of the confederates were tried as well so the due process concerns would be a change in the usage of the statute. All you had to do was prove somebody was a confederate and the statute would apply.
Likely the supreme court will say its like a sparkling coup because it doesn’t come from the Insurrection region of france and they will bend over backwards for Their Guy ™
Wallace’s decision was brilliant legal maneuvering. Having found Trump factually guilty of insurrection, higher courts cannot re-adjudicate or dismiss that fact. It is now written in stone.
Given that this case was going to be appealed, no matter what, her decision basically dropped an anvil on Trump’s head. Now SCOTUS cannot disregard the fact that Trump engaged in insurrection. They’re stuck with that, that’s how our law works. Bet Trump’s defense is pissed off.
Only way out now is some serious legal acrobatics to say that 14th does not apply to POTUS. LOL, he’s fucked.
And remember, this court is conservative, not partisan. These judges owe neither the GOP nor Trump a damned thing. I’d bet you a crisp $20 bill that, like the GOP leadership, every one of them loathes the man. And unlike the GOP leadership, they no longer have to worry about votes.
They’ve already declined to hear one Trump case (maybe two?), thereby kicking his loss back to the lower court. Where, ya know, he already lost. They also told Alabama to go fuck themselves on their redistricting shenanigans.
tl;dr: Wallace ruled this way on purpose to fuck Trump.
Everything you say would also be the case if she hadn’t come up with the bullshit about not applying to the presidency. That was simply about keeping the maga crosshairs off of her.
Clarence Thomas seems to like Trump just fine; he and his wife were being very shady after the 2020 election.
The idea that this court is “not partisan” is frankly one of the most naïve things I’ve heard in a long time.
Literally, this scotus makes up its own facts all the time to get to the outcome they want. Go look into the quiet prayer that football coach was doing (it wasn’t quiet).
They literally don’t give a shit anymore about any rule. Standing doesn’t matter, facts, anything. If they just think they need to stick their stupid fucking faces into something they just go with their major questions bullshit now.
what has confused me about people saying this is, well, what exactly stops the supreme court from overriding him being declared factually guilty of that? Im guessing theres some sort of law to the effect that decisions like that arent what higher courts are trying to answer, but the supreme court also has no higher court to appeal a ruling to, so if they just decided to declare that this finding was incorrect anyway, what would happen?
That’s not how precedent works. Higher courts set precedent that lower courts must follow, not vice versa. For instance, the SC could introduce a very narrow definition of (participating in) an insurrection. If they want to rule in Trump’s favor, they will find an excuse (and mangle the law in the process).
This is not a smart take. It’s basically conspiracy thinking.
Otherwise, the Supreme Court is clearly partisan, because Alito and Thomas unashamedly contort into any position needed to face the MAGA base, and Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Coney Barrett will typically tend to do so in any issue involving civil rights or business interests.
The GOP is the body that executes the will of whatever conservatism is at any moment; they are inseparable at the executional level. The doctrinal vehicle the GOP uses to get where it’s going is originalism, but the great thing about justices playing professional-amateur historians is that they can cherry-pick history to suit party-doctrinal needs.
I think what’s important here is that the judge ruled that the orange cheeto comitted insurrection. I hope the supreme court does not strike down this part. If they don’t, then they may proceed with judging the case based solely on that.
That sounds a lot like Canadian (and also British) constitutional theory. The King is powerless himself. He just wears the crown, the Crown has all the power. The King wears the crown, and parliament controls it.
This is going to backfire on them royally. A left-wing person is going to be convicted of trying to overthrow the government, but then be able to run for president if that becomes the precedent. Be careful what you wish for, conservatives.
This part really pissed me off. The 14th amendment is pretty clear that it refers to any and all people. Is it just me, or is judge Wallace implying that it isn’t clear that the founders believed the president is a person?
It does apply to the President. Colorado’s judge erred here because they did not have access to Federal documents.
We have the minutes from the 39th Congress that literally indicates that it applies to the President.
— Sen. Reverdy Johnson (D-MD)
— Sen. Lot Morrill (R-MA)
It was a very specific question that was answered by the Senate while they were discussing it. So Judge Wallace’s determination is incorrect on the merits. Judges can be wrong sometimes, that’s why we have appeals.
You assume that the originalists on the court care what the framers of the amendment thought, when it goes against the decision they want to render.
Do you think the judge on Colorado was an originalist who made their ruling in bad faith, or that they are just evade responsibility for the ruling?
Cool, I want to read it, which session and pages was it?
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Awesome, thanks for sharing
Here’s the relevant page for anyone to lazy too click through. He even goes on to say “perhaps I am wrong as to the exclusion of the presidency, no doubt I am.”
There was also some interesting debate on if it should expire after 1870, and the response was a pretty resounding no, it should be the law of the land forever. Some people recently have also pointed out the phrase about giving congress the power to enact laws to these effect, suggesting it doesn’t do anything unless congress makes a specific law enforcing it. That didn’t seem to be the view when they added it in to the amendment though, they wanted to say congress explicitly had that power so that it could override state law if states were in conflict with the constitution here. There was a concern that if they didn’t add that, then only states would have the power by definition (any powers not explicitly given to the federal government are devolved to the states), and confederate states might choose not to enforce all the provisions of the fourteenth amendment. This would let congress explicitly over ride state laws in respect to equal protection and other parts of the amendment including the insurrection part. Obligatory IANAL disclaimer, but it was very interesting to read through. Some of the things I’m referencing were from an earlier day, may 23rd, there were a number of days where the amendment was brought up.
Oh they actually talked to each other and weren’t forced to direct their questions to the chair?
Senate not House.
I thought the insurrection clause was a hard reach, but it feels really buttoned up when you take into account the discussions. Like I don’t even see any maneuvering room. Which kinda sucks because I had emotionally accepted he was going to be the nominee and now I have hope.
What’s really interesting is, what if he stays off the ballot in CO but wins the race? He’s be the President of the US but ineligible to be President in CO. Seems like an actual constitutional crisis unless the SCOTUS ruling automatically removes him from every state.
If SCOTUS rules that trump can be removed from the Colorado ballot there will be a domino effect that will see him removed from a large number of other states.
There’s zero chance of a 2nd trump term if SCOTUS rules that way.
That’s not exactly true. Unless some battleground states remove him from the ballot it doesn’t matter what the states who were going to vote blue do. He wasn’t going to win there anyway. As a Colorado voter I would put us in that category. Trump’s not winning CO no matter what happens in this case.
Surely if the supreme court ruled that if he wasn’t eligible in one state then any single person in other states could use that ruling to have him removed from any state they live in?
That would depend on which interpretation of eligible we end up with. We might see a ban on removing him from ballots, individual states being left to decide, removal from all ballots, or some other other weird scenario. Nothing is straightforward with that man and I don’t expect this situation to turn out any different.
Based on what I read from discussions of the amendment passing at the time in the documents above, it sounds odd but it might be the case. Again IANAL, but they added a clause in the amendment that specifically says something to the effect of congress can make laws to enforce this. The idea being if they didn’t have that clause the power would be assumed to automatically devolve to the states, because of the part of the constitution that says any powers not delegated specifically to the federal government go to state governments. So basically there’s at least one interpretation here where unless congress makes a specific law enforcing the provision, it would be up to specific states to implement as they saw fit. I think it’s most likely the supreme court weasels out of this whole thing somehow still, but there might be a chance something like that could happen.
It could end up with SCOTUS deciding states have the full right to decide what candidates they allow (has historical backing) but they would probably also need to argue that invalidation as a candidate in a minority of states doesn’t invalidate their power as an elected president, or else it gets very very complicated fast.
Congress can vote to forgive him, so there’s a path to him legally becoming president against (although obviously they shouldn’t)
Congress can barely vote to keep the lights on. I’d get out the popcorn for that one.
Jefferson Davis and Robert E Lee were some of the few that were barred from holding office until like, the 70’s, when it was reversed posthumously. As with all things Trump, entertaining the question to begin with is pretty fucking stupid.
The supreme Court reversed saying as much, however even with all Democrat judges the decision was 4-3. Dissenting judges were concerned about the lack of due process, basically Trump hasn’t been convicted. This is despite the fact that Trump’s legal representation did defend against the plaintiffs claims.
None of the confederates were tried as well so the due process concerns would be a change in the usage of the statute. All you had to do was prove somebody was a confederate and the statute would apply.
Likely the supreme court will say its like a sparkling coup because it doesn’t come from the Insurrection region of france and they will bend over backwards for Their Guy ™
Wallace’s decision was brilliant legal maneuvering. Having found Trump factually guilty of insurrection, higher courts cannot re-adjudicate or dismiss that fact. It is now written in stone.
Given that this case was going to be appealed, no matter what, her decision basically dropped an anvil on Trump’s head. Now SCOTUS cannot disregard the fact that Trump engaged in insurrection. They’re stuck with that, that’s how our law works. Bet Trump’s defense is pissed off.
Only way out now is some serious legal acrobatics to say that 14th does not apply to POTUS. LOL, he’s fucked.
And remember, this court is conservative, not partisan. These judges owe neither the GOP nor Trump a damned thing. I’d bet you a crisp $20 bill that, like the GOP leadership, every one of them loathes the man. And unlike the GOP leadership, they no longer have to worry about votes.
They’ve already declined to hear one Trump case (maybe two?), thereby kicking his loss back to the lower court. Where, ya know, he already lost. They also told Alabama to go fuck themselves on their redistricting shenanigans.
tl;dr: Wallace ruled this way on purpose to fuck Trump.
Everything you say would also be the case if she hadn’t come up with the bullshit about not applying to the presidency. That was simply about keeping the maga crosshairs off of her.
Clarence Thomas seems to like Trump just fine; he and his wife were being very shady after the 2020 election.
The idea that this court is “not partisan” is frankly one of the most naïve things I’ve heard in a long time.
They gonna tho.
Literally, this scotus makes up its own facts all the time to get to the outcome they want. Go look into the quiet prayer that football coach was doing (it wasn’t quiet).
They literally don’t give a shit anymore about any rule. Standing doesn’t matter, facts, anything. If they just think they need to stick their stupid fucking faces into something they just go with their major questions bullshit now.
Down with the god kings of the Supreme Court!
This is the corrupted court that overturned Roe.
what has confused me about people saying this is, well, what exactly stops the supreme court from overriding him being declared factually guilty of that? Im guessing theres some sort of law to the effect that decisions like that arent what higher courts are trying to answer, but the supreme court also has no higher court to appeal a ruling to, so if they just decided to declare that this finding was incorrect anyway, what would happen?
There’s nothing stopping them but they are expected to consider precedent which that decision sets.
That’s not how precedent works. Higher courts set precedent that lower courts must follow, not vice versa. For instance, the SC could introduce a very narrow definition of (participating in) an insurrection. If they want to rule in Trump’s favor, they will find an excuse (and mangle the law in the process).
Yeah, they are pretty GD partisan. By virtue of being conservative.
This is not a smart take. It’s basically conspiracy thinking.
Otherwise, the Supreme Court is clearly partisan, because Alito and Thomas unashamedly contort into any position needed to face the MAGA base, and Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Coney Barrett will typically tend to do so in any issue involving civil rights or business interests.
The GOP is the body that executes the will of whatever conservatism is at any moment; they are inseparable at the executional level. The doctrinal vehicle the GOP uses to get where it’s going is originalism, but the great thing about justices playing professional-amateur historians is that they can cherry-pick history to suit party-doctrinal needs.
The 14th is a reconstruction amendment btw, it wasn’t drafted or ratified by the founders.
Great point. I don’t know why I said founders, I meant framers, but I’m leaving it so your correction makes sense.
they founded the 14th amendment
I think what’s important here is that the judge ruled that the orange cheeto comitted insurrection. I hope the supreme court does not strike down this part. If they don’t, then they may proceed with judging the case based solely on that.
the president is an office inhabited by a person for four years at most twice.
that was the intent.
never again “I am the State.”
That sounds a lot like Canadian (and also British) constitutional theory. The King is powerless himself. He just wears the crown, the Crown has all the power. The King wears the crown, and parliament controls it.
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This is going to backfire on them royally. A left-wing person is going to be convicted of trying to overthrow the government, but then be able to run for president if that becomes the precedent. Be careful what you wish for, conservatives.