So what is the actual fucking problem with ensuring that trans individuals aren’t discriminated against?
The ONLY real argument for anything regarding trans individuals is sports. Women’s sports are divided out so they can compete equally. No sane person has a problem with ensuring that womens sports contains biological women throughout. And this affects FRAGMENTS of FRAGMENTS of the population (something like 0.15% when accounting for biological abnormalities)
Everything else, renting, jobs, retirement, loans, etc – should abso-fucking-lutely be a protected class against discrimination. Trans people don’t deserve to be treated differently just because you’re scared of them. They aren’t trying to convert your children. They aren’t predators. They’re just wired differently. That’s all.
I’m… conflicted by your take? I mean, everything outside of the sports part is mostly great and thank you for supporting trans folk.
Regarding the sports bans, trans individuals do not generally get a significant advantage against their cis peers. In the case of trans women, they are often are at a detriment in sports due to the lack of testosterone in their body that’s naturally there even in cis women. We haven’t seen clear cases of trans individuals standing out against their cis peers consistently and the argument that excluding such a small group works both ways. Unless trans folks are somehow world-class by default, excluding them from their gendered sport is moot and if anything cruel.
One place I see compromise (at least with trans women, I have no idea how men’s sports handles trans men since they need to take Testosterone) is requiring a certain number of years of HRT. Those who just started HRT might have an advantage, but after a few years they are around the same level as or further behind their peers.
EDIT: I’m a tiny bit more conflicted now reading some other comments I’ve seen you make. I feel like you’re coming from a genuinely good place though. I hope you continue to expose yourself to different ideas and keep learning and growing. ^_^
I’m supportive of trans people’s rights to be left the fuck alone, and to be treated equally. But I also get that there need to be safe spaces for women to exist without some shadow-of-a-doubt in the back of their mind. Yes, that’s exclusionary, but remember the “Man vs Bear” debate a few months back? There are lots of women who are legitimately less trusting of men than they are a wild animal who will maul your face off.
Yeah, I’m harsh with the way that I put things. I understand that; it’s a result of the harsh environment I grew up in as a kid. People who were raised more tenderly probably don’t like the way I speak about things. But I DO support LGBTQ individuals and their right to not be discriminated against; as best as I can reconcile that with my belief that women need places they can escape men entirely if needed.
No sane person has a problem with ensuring that womens sports contains biological women throughout
Au contraire. Because of HRT, a trans woman would generally have less testosterone than a cis woman. Some of the top-performing cis female athletes would be disqualified by rules based on hiring hormone levels. And puberty-related changes that would prove advantageous can be avoided with puberty -blockers until fully transitioning as an adult with full HRT. And even then the trans female adolescent is at a hormonal disadvantage during that age range.
So FEW trans people actually compete in sports to the level where this even matters. The fact that it even causes the general public to question the results of the sport is enough to not allow it. The whole spirit of competition is that people are playing on equal ground - and if it causes the public to question that equality, then it destroys the entire purpose. Sure, I hope that the public become more accepting of trans individuals over time, and that more studies are released that show they gain no advantage, but HRT is a rather new thing in human history. It’s us toying with nature, and just like genetic engineering - should be disallowed in competition. If India found some new goal in CRISPR to edit the human genome for gain in sport, and they entered the Olympics, everyone would frown upon it. Not because of sex, but because of tampering with the human body. The stated goal of all sports is competition and recognition of the most fit in our species. Modifying the human body is counter to the spirit of it.
Women’s sports are divided out so they can compete equally.
This isn’t true at all. Women’s leagues were created because men refused to let women play in the leagues that were already created. That’s literally all there was to it.
Some sports did allow women to participate, but only until a woman embarassed a man by winning. Then they’d be banned until women set up their own leagues.
I meant when and in what sport “a woman embarrassed a man by winning” leading to gender segregation of the sport. Olympic shotgun skeet seems like an example, but that’s a pretty esoteric “sport,” so using that as an example to generalize about sports more broadly seems poorly conceived.
As I noted below, most major sports leagues in the US don’t have and, with the exception of baseball (which wasn’t because “a woman embarrassed a man by winning,” it was just basic sexism/patriarchy), never had rules about gender segregation. Women have always been eligible to play in the NBA, NHL, NFL, etc.
Are you talking about a specific country or something?
The NFL has no gender-specific eligibility requirements. Anyone good enough to play NFL-level football can play.
The NHL is the same.
The NBA is the same, and women have been invited to training camps in the past, but none were able to perform well enough at the game to play in the NBA.
Women were banned from the MLB in 1952, but that was overturned in the 1990s, but no woman has been able to perform well enough to play in the MLB. Melissa Mayeux did make the international registration list for the MLB though, making her eligible to sign with an MLB team.
There are sports where women can be generally equal to men in performance (ultramarathon running) or generally better than men (target shooting), but they are less popular and less lucrative sports.
The ONLY real argument for anything regarding trans individuals is sports.
This IS discriminatory against trans people. Why the fuck should laws exist to regulate sports? That’s not the government’s job, and it never fucking should be.
If trans people want to play sports, and you want the government to make them stop through the threat of criminal prosecution, you’re not just an overt transphobe, but a fascist to boot.
Biological women
Eat shit, TERF.
Next time read the article before you open your dumb mouth. Maybe you’d have learned something:
There is no evidence trans youth have an advantage in sports over their cisgender peers. Transgender student athletes have different body types just as cisgender student athletes. Genetics and training can affect how trans students play as well as if the student is on puberty blockers as part of their gender-affirming care.
So what is the actual fucking problem with ensuring that trans individuals aren’t discriminated against?
The ONLY real argument for anything regarding trans individuals is sports. Women’s sports are divided out so they can compete equally. No sane person has a problem with ensuring that womens sports contains biological women throughout. And this affects FRAGMENTS of FRAGMENTS of the population (something like 0.15% when accounting for biological abnormalities)
Everything else, renting, jobs, retirement, loans, etc – should abso-fucking-lutely be a protected class against discrimination. Trans people don’t deserve to be treated differently just because you’re scared of them. They aren’t trying to convert your children. They aren’t predators. They’re just wired differently. That’s all.
I’m… conflicted by your take? I mean, everything outside of the sports part is mostly great and thank you for supporting trans folk.
Regarding the sports bans, trans individuals do not generally get a significant advantage against their cis peers. In the case of trans women, they are often are at a detriment in sports due to the lack of testosterone in their body that’s naturally there even in cis women. We haven’t seen clear cases of trans individuals standing out against their cis peers consistently and the argument that excluding such a small group works both ways. Unless trans folks are somehow world-class by default, excluding them from their gendered sport is moot and if anything cruel.
One place I see compromise (at least with trans women, I have no idea how men’s sports handles trans men since they need to take Testosterone) is requiring a certain number of years of HRT. Those who just started HRT might have an advantage, but after a few years they are around the same level as or further behind their peers.
EDIT: I’m a tiny bit more conflicted now reading some other comments I’ve seen you make. I feel like you’re coming from a genuinely good place though. I hope you continue to expose yourself to different ideas and keep learning and growing. ^_^
I’m supportive of trans people’s rights to be left the fuck alone, and to be treated equally. But I also get that there need to be safe spaces for women to exist without some shadow-of-a-doubt in the back of their mind. Yes, that’s exclusionary, but remember the “Man vs Bear” debate a few months back? There are lots of women who are legitimately less trusting of men than they are a wild animal who will maul your face off.
Yeah, I’m harsh with the way that I put things. I understand that; it’s a result of the harsh environment I grew up in as a kid. People who were raised more tenderly probably don’t like the way I speak about things. But I DO support LGBTQ individuals and their right to not be discriminated against; as best as I can reconcile that with my belief that women need places they can escape men entirely if needed.
Au contraire. Because of HRT, a trans woman would generally have less testosterone than a cis woman. Some of the top-performing cis female athletes would be disqualified by rules based on
hiringhormone levels. And puberty-related changes that would prove advantageous can be avoided with puberty -blockers until fully transitioning as an adult with full HRT. And even then the trans female adolescent is at a hormonal disadvantage during that age range.So FEW trans people actually compete in sports to the level where this even matters. The fact that it even causes the general public to question the results of the sport is enough to not allow it. The whole spirit of competition is that people are playing on equal ground - and if it causes the public to question that equality, then it destroys the entire purpose. Sure, I hope that the public become more accepting of trans individuals over time, and that more studies are released that show they gain no advantage, but HRT is a rather new thing in human history. It’s us toying with nature, and just like genetic engineering - should be disallowed in competition. If India found some new goal in CRISPR to edit the human genome for gain in sport, and they entered the Olympics, everyone would frown upon it. Not because of sex, but because of tampering with the human body. The stated goal of all sports is competition and recognition of the most fit in our species. Modifying the human body is counter to the spirit of it.
This isn’t true at all. Women’s leagues were created because men refused to let women play in the leagues that were already created. That’s literally all there was to it.
That’s not entirely true.
Some sports did allow women to participate, but only until a woman embarassed a man by winning. Then they’d be banned until women set up their own leagues.
When did that occur and in what sport? That seems like an interesting event in sports history, I would be interested to read about it.
Figure skating, Olympic shotgun skeet, and baseball, at least.
I meant when and in what sport “a woman embarrassed a man by winning” leading to gender segregation of the sport. Olympic shotgun skeet seems like an example, but that’s a pretty esoteric “sport,” so using that as an example to generalize about sports more broadly seems poorly conceived.
As I noted below, most major sports leagues in the US don’t have and, with the exception of baseball (which wasn’t because “a woman embarrassed a man by winning,” it was just basic sexism/patriarchy), never had rules about gender segregation. Women have always been eligible to play in the NBA, NHL, NFL, etc.
Are you talking about a specific country or something?
I’d like a citation on this if you would.
The NFL has no gender-specific eligibility requirements. Anyone good enough to play NFL-level football can play.
The NHL is the same.
The NBA is the same, and women have been invited to training camps in the past, but none were able to perform well enough at the game to play in the NBA.
Women were banned from the MLB in 1952, but that was overturned in the 1990s, but no woman has been able to perform well enough to play in the MLB. Melissa Mayeux did make the international registration list for the MLB though, making her eligible to sign with an MLB team.
There are sports where women can be generally equal to men in performance (ultramarathon running) or generally better than men (target shooting), but they are less popular and less lucrative sports.
This IS discriminatory against trans people. Why the fuck should laws exist to regulate sports? That’s not the government’s job, and it never fucking should be.
If trans people want to play sports, and you want the government to make them stop through the threat of criminal prosecution, you’re not just an overt transphobe, but a fascist to boot.
Eat shit, TERF.
Next time read the article before you open your dumb mouth. Maybe you’d have learned something: